My Question

[klutedavid]

I was trying to say that you were referencing the ten commandments but Oscarr wasn't talking about the ten commandments.

Yes Oscar directly referred to the law.

Which is why I said I think you misunderstood.

I understood exactly what Oscar said.

A lot of what you asked such as
Is answered by ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ If you are following that you won't be beating your neighbour or mistreating widows or selling your children.

That is not what we were commanded to do. That is the law and we are not under the law. If we were under the law then the apostles would have told us to be circumcised.

It's not and I wasn't answering that.
I take that to mean we are to love ourselves and treat others accordingly. If a person doesn't love themselves very much they need to be working on it, don't they.

Now you have stretched past the law. Where does the law say that we are to love ourselves?

So your saying I should firstly learn to love myself which seems to be the antithesis of what Jesus taught?

 

[klutedavid]

Oh. I'm not sure how serious you are in your post! Go over your list and test whether the are loving God with all your heart, or loving others as you would love yourself. Because those are the criteria that Jesus said fulfills the ten commandments and God's moral law. If you and I are conducting ourselves according to the criteria that Jesus set, then you and I would be doing none of those things.

I don't know about eating blood, or things strangled. There may be health-related issues there and it there is a rick, it may not be loving one's self. I guess that joining in a meal during a Hindu festival or in a Moslem mosque could fit into eating food contaminated by idols, although Paul said that idols were nothing, and it was up to the individual conscience. But I wouldn't enter a pagan temple and eat food there. But during a hindu festival one of the Court judges, who was Hindu, brought in samosas for the staff. I had no problem eating one.

Regardless of your interpretation of Acts 15.

Do you obey the teaching of the apostles?

Will you eat meat with the blood in it?

Will you willfully disobey the apostles direct commandment?

The apostles answered the big question in Acts 15. Do Gentiles need to be circumcised and are they are under the law?

The answer was a very firm no to that question.

Circumcision is not required of any Gentile nor is adherence to any shred of the law. How simple all this really is in the end.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is what I am saying.

The rule book is the law and that includes coveting your neighbor's oxen.

The law shows someone what sin is but offers no solution to that problem, the sinful appetite.

You said the ten commandments are moral laws. I disagree with that statement because the Christian life is not about being a moral person according to the law.

The Christian life is all about your love, loving others as Christ has loved you. Which obviously takes care in spades of any moral requirement of the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the demands of the law, coveting itself has nothing to do with loving others.

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith...

The law has nothing to do with your faith in Jesus.

So are you saying that if a believer isn't a moral person, then he must be immoral in his conduct. I thought the whole basis of true morality is loving God with all your heart, and loving your neighbor as yourself, involving doing to others as you have have them do to you.

James is talking to converted Christian believers, not the unconverted, when he says that if a person has faith let him show it by his works. Evidence of a changed life is evidence of true conversion. So a true convert to Christ would never "covet his neighbor's cattle", because he would not be envious of what doesn't belong to him. Envy and jealousy are heart sins that are parts of the works of the flesh. But the deeds that arise out of the fruit of the Spirit are the works that James is talking about as being the evidence of true faith in Christ.

Jesus said the moral law is expressed fully in loving God and loving others. I just don't understand why you don't actually believe that. You are saying that we must love God and love others, and yet not be subject to God's moral law. This sounds ridiculous because you are saying that apples are not apples, and that light is not light. It is basic common sense and logic that if something is something, it cannot be not something. If Jesus says that the application of the moral law is to love God and love others, then it is impossible to say we don't apply the moral law and still love God and others. If you don't apply the moral law, then you don't love God and others at all, but are actually going back to the works of the flesh, which is the opposite of applying the moral law. What you are supporting then is what is called "antinomianism" which is a person can just go on sinning because he has professed faith in Christ. But if you do that, then according to James, your faith is dead!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Regardless of your interpretation of Acts 15.

Do you obey the teaching of the apostles?

Will you eat meat with the blood in it?

Will you willfully disobey the apostles direct commandment?

The apostles answered the big question in Acts 15. Do Gentiles need to be circumcised and are they are under the law?

The answer was a very firm no to that question.

Circumcision is not required of any Gentile nor is adherence to any shred of the law. How simple all this really is in the end.

It is the Mosaic ceremonial law with its rituals, sacrifices, observance of days, weeks, months and years, passovers, sabbaths, etc. that Paul was opposing as a prerequisite for salvation. God's moral law existed long before Moses and has always been the standard which God expects of mankind.

 

[Bob S]

Yes. The Ten Commandments sum up God's moral law.

They do??? Do you realize that there is nothing about the greatest command ever given, LOVE? I believe the posts proceeding this one will tell the remainder of the story about the 10 commandments.

They will always be set before us as God's standards for holy living.

They will?? Here I thought Jesus is the standard we should follow. He said we have to believe in Him and His commandments to love others as He loves us. Do you realize that you don't have to love anyone and still observe the 10 commandments out of duty? Do you realize that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments have been done away? 2Cor3:6-11 KJV

 

[Bob S]

It is the Mosaic ceremonial law with its rituals, sacrifices, observance of days, weeks, months and years, passovers, sabbaths, etc. that Paul was opposing as a prerequisite for salvation. God's moral law existed long before Moses and has always been the standard which God expects of mankind.

Morality existed not the 10 commandments. Laws dealing with morality are forever. The 10 commandments ended with the rest of the laws of the Sinai covenant. They all ended at Calvary when the new covenant was ratified with Jesus own blood.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They do??? Do you realize that there is nothing about the greatest command ever given, LOVE? I believe the posts proceeding this one will tell the remainder of the story about the 10 commandments.


They will?? Here I thought Jesus is the standard we should follow. He said we have to believe in Him and His commandments to love others as He loves us. Do you realize that you don't have to love anyone and still observe the 10 commandments out of duty? Do you realize that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments have been done away? 2Cor3:6-11 KJV

Oh. So you missed what Jesus said about loving God and others being the sum of the Ten Commandments? If you carefully examine the Commandments you will see that they consist of either loving God or loving others. So, if we follow what Jesus said, then we will be following the Ten Commandments, and it will be with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, because the Scripture says that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So if we really do have the Holy Spirit we will love God and others as Jesus said, which is the same as following the Ten Commandments.

So, morality is not the Ten Commandments? What is it then? It can't be the ceremonial rituals and restrictions of the Mosaic Law.

 

[klutedavid]

It is the Mosaic ceremonial law with its rituals, sacrifices, observance of days, weeks, months and years, passovers, sabbaths, etc. that Paul was opposing as a prerequisite for salvation. God's moral law existed long before Moses and has always been the standard which God expects of mankind.

That is you interpretation of the scripture.

I have not even seen that phrase, 'ceremonial law', in the scripture.

I observed the written law in Exodus but somehow missed the delivery of the ten commandments at some earlier time.

You may be confusing a more general law, a law of the conscious, of not mistreating others with the written and more formal ten commandments.

Because you are not circumcised you are excluded from citizenship in Israel. Hence you are not under the demands of the law of Moses. Nor any legal part thereof.

 

[Bob S]

The words of the Sinai covenant was the 613 laws given to Israel. They had nothing to do with their salvation. The new covenant ratified with Jesus blood at Calvary is all about our salvation. You can read what the Sinai covenant was intended to do in Ex19:5-6. Israelites were saved the same way Abraham was saved and the same way we are saved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is you interpretation of the scripture.

I have not even seen that phrase, 'ceremonial law', in the scripture.

I observed the written law in Exodus but somehow missed the delivery of the ten commandments at some earlier time.

You may be confusing a more general law, a law of the conscious, of not mistreating others with the written and more formal ten commandments.

Because you are not circumcised you are excluded from citizenship in Israel. Hence you are not under the demands of the law of Moses. Nor any legal part thereof.

So, let me get this straight. We are quite free then to live according to works of the flesh as outlined in Galatians 5:19-21?

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

These are the alternative to be under God's moral law. It looks like if you have abandoned God's moral law as your lifestyle, you won't inherit the kingdom of God. Where does that place you then?

 

[klutedavid]

So, let me get this straight.

Gee I hope you do straighten it out.

We are quite free then to live according to works of the flesh as outlined in Galatians 5:19-21?

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

That is not the ten commandments Oscar?

Those are the works of the flesh and they are legion. Drunkenness is not in that list; that is the ten commandments?

What is it you are trying to say?

Please support your argument.

These are the alternative to be under God's moral law. It looks like if you have abandoned God's moral law as your lifestyle, you won't inherit the kingdom of God. Where does that place you then?

Accusations will not get you anywhere.

I simply am commanded to love others as Christ has loved us. Paul said I was not under the law and I am staying that way, LIBERTY!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The words of the Sinai covenant was the 613 laws given to Israel. They had nothing to do with their salvation. The new covenant ratified with Jesus blood at Calvary is all about our salvation. You can read what the Sinai covenant was intended to do in Ex19:5-6. Israelites were saved the same way Abraham was saved and the same way we are saved.

No. The Israelites under the Law of Moses were under the Mosaic Covenant which stated that the people had to live by the Law, and the only way they could be justified under that covenant was to participate in the ceremonial sacrifices, Passovers, Sabbaths, and other rituals of Judaism. The faith that the Israelite had was in the yearly sacrifice. If an Israelite was circumcised and followed the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law from their hearts, they were saved by grace through faith - because they were looking to the Messiah to come. But not all Israelites followed these things with their hearts. They were content just to follow the outward rules and ceremonies. That why Jesus said that, apart from a small minority, all of Israel had rejected Him. He said that if they had the faith of Abraham, then they would have welcomed Him. But, in response to the Jews saying that Abraham was their father, Jesus said, "No. The devil is our father" because they were rejecting Him and wanting to kill Him.

Out of the great crowds that followed Jesus during His three years of ministry, only 120 were left to receive the Holy Spirit in the Upper Room. That means that out of the whole of Israel, just 120 were faithful to Him, these were the ones who were under the Abrahamic covenant of faith and life. All the rest of Israel were under the Mosaic covenant of death - because no one was able to keep the Law and with the death of Jesus, the sacrifices for sin were useless, because Jesus had become the one and only sacrifice for sin.

 

[Bob S]

Oh. So you missed what Jesus said about loving God and others being the sum of the Ten Commandments?

I didn't miss anything Oscarr. Jesus related that before the new covenant was ratified. Jesus lived and taught under the old covenant. The law is what all the Jews lived under. By the way, Jesus didn't mention 10 commandments.

If you carefully examine the Commandments you will see that they consist of either loving God or loving others.

That is not true. There is absolutely nothing in the 10 commandments about love. I have "examined" them many times.

So, if we follow what Jesus said, then we will be following the Ten Commandments, and it will be with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, because the Scripture says that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So if we really do have the Holy Spirit we will love God and others as Jesus said, which is the same as following the Ten Commandments.

You started out with some posts that have great thoughts. Now you have regressed to the point that I think you are writing by the seat of your pants. (old expression) Paul wrote that the Holy Spirit replaced the 10 commandments.

So, morality is not the Ten Commandments? What is it then? It can't be the ceremonial rituals and restrictions of the Mosaic Law.

There are laws in the 10 that deal with morality. There are laws in the remainder of the law that also deal with morality which you cull.

There is absolutely nothing about the greatest commandment in the 10.

 

[Bob S]

No. The Israelites under the Law of Moses were under the Mosaic Covenant which stated that the people had to live by the Law, and the only way they could be justified under that covenant was to participate in the ceremonial sacrifices, Passovers, Sabbaths, and other rituals of Judaism. The faith that the Israelite had was in the yearly sacrifice. If an Israelite was circumcised and followed the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law from their hearts, they were saved by grace through faith - because they were looking to the Messiah to come. But not all Israelites followed these things with their hearts. They were content just to follow the outward rules and ceremonies. That why Jesus said that, apart from a small minority, all of Israel had rejected Him. He said that if they had the faith of Abraham, then they would have welcomed Him. But, in response to the Jews saying that Abraham was their father, Jesus said, "No. The devil is our father" because they were rejecting Him and wanting to kill Him.

Bologna Oscarr, pure speculation.

Out of the great crowds that followed Jesus during His three years of ministry, only 120 were left to receive the Holy Spirit in the Upper Room. That means that out of the whole of Israel, just 120 were faithful to Him,

You have no idea who was faithful to Him. Again, pure speculation.

 

[Bob S]

Good night.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Gee I hope you do straighten it out.

That is not the ten commandments Oscar?

Those are the works of the flesh and they are legion. Drunkenness is not in that list; that is the ten commandments?

What is it you are trying to say?

Please support your argument.

Accusations will not get you anywhere.

I simply am commanded to love others as Christ has loved us. Paul said I was not under the law and I am staying that way, LIBERTY!

So you are free not to follow the Ten Commandments? Let's see your alternatives:

1. I am the Lord thy God! Thou shalt have no other Gods but me!

This means that you can worship any deity you like. You don't have to put God first in your life.

1. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain!

You can use the name of God and Jesus as a swear word and use His name to get your own selfish wants and expect God to provide them.

1. Thou shalt keep the Sabbath Day holy!

Because the Jewish Sabbath is abolished, you don't have to be holy on any day of the week! If a person is to worship God in spirit and in truth, then every day is holy.

1. Thou shalt honor father and mother!

This means that you can show disrespect to your parents and treat them like dirt.

1. Thou shalt not kill!

You can get a gun and go and kill anyone you want.

1. Thou shalt not commit adultery!

If you are married, you can go to a brothel or pick up some floosie off the street and have your wicked way with her.

1. Thou shalt not steal!

You can steal anything you like, taking what doesn't belong to you at any time.

1. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!

You can lie at any time to and about any person you like.

1. Do not let thyself lust after thy neighbor’s wife!

You can go at any time and have your wicked way against anyone's wife.

1. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, nor his farm, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his!

You can be envious and jealous concerning the possessions of others and do anything you can to cheat them out of them.

I think you need to make yourself clear about the type of lifestyle you are promoting, and whether these alternatives to the Ten Commandments are consistent with the true gospel of Christ and the life of holiness that every believer needs to live.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Bologna Oscarr, pure speculation.


You have no idea who was faithful to Him. Again, pure speculation.

I just read the Bible as it is written.

 

[klutedavid]

Good night.

Guten nacht Bob.

 

[klutedavid]

I just read the Bible as it is written.

No sir, you have applied an interpretation to the scripture. A simple reading of the scripture will inform you that the Gentiles were not under the law.

Paul said you were not under the law and we know that the ten commandments are an integral part of that law.

The law kills Oscar, covet and you die.

The law kills Oscar commit adultery and you die.

The law takes no prisoners Oscar, the law condemns all those foolish enough to think that they can obey the law.

Israel agreed to obey the law three times. That was their law and they were bound in covenant to obey that law. That was their mistake as history has amply displayed.

Gentiles are not in a covenant to obey the law and the Gentiles never agreed to obey the law.

I point blank refuse to agree with the terms and condition of the Mosaic covenant. I know what happens because I read the book.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No sir, you have applied an interpretation to the scripture. A simple reading of the scripture will inform you that the Gentiles were not under the law.

Paul said you were not under the law and we know that the ten commandments are an integral part of that law.

The law kills Oscar, covet and you die.
I don't understand why you can't address my comments about the alternative to living by the Ten Commandments. Are you saying that you are going to live a lawless life where anything goes, that you can do any work of the flesh you like and not get into trouble with the Lord about it.

It seems to me that you are not intending to live a holy life but to do anything you please, including doing things that are totally contrary to the nature and character of the Holy Spirit.

The law kills Oscar commit adultery and you die.

The law takes no prisoners Oscar, the law condemns all those foolish enough to think that they can obey the law.

Israel agreed to obey the law three times. That was their law and they were bound in covenant to obey that law. That was their mistake as history has amply displayed.

Gentiles are not in a covenant to obey the law and the Gentiles never agreed to obey the law.

I point blank refuse to agree with the terms and condition of the Mosaic covenant. I know what happens because I read the book.