My Psalm 19:1 challenge

TLK Valentine said:

Nothing -- I just think it's important to expose doubletalk for what it is, lest someone besides yourself gets the mistaken impression that you're talking theology.

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Well ... that's mighty nice of ya!

I'm sure CF is much safer, now that Mr. Rent-a-Cop is protecting it from guys who don't know theology.

TLK Valentine said:

Nothing -- I just think it's important to expose doubletalk for what it is, lest someone besides yourself gets the mistaken impression that you're talking theology.

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You should have stopped at "Nothing" and not taken up the sword of revelation to expose his nakedness to us all. Yikes.

AV1611VET said:

Well ... that's mighty nice of ya!

I'm sure CF is much safer, now that Mr. Rent-a-Cop is protecting it from guys who don't know theology.

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Now, now, AV -- don't be bitter just because everyone sees through you.

Heissonear said:

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KTS, I've taken a selected portion of what you stated - because of what you state without the add ons is correct - God has made everything have an apparent age from an "only scientific and Naturalistic viewpoint."

The error is in saying science and the natural realm in and of themselves gives the final answer to this existence. In that specific conclusion of "ad on - what gives the final answer" - such conclusions are not true, is not the case, in accordance to what God has purposed in this Creation. God has the final say between what is true and false, right from wrong, good from evil. He has the final word. That is who and how He is.

As mentioned before, I'm a geologist and was made aware of our natural realm long before believing in a God. Through my five senses and scientific inquiry I was lead to be a Naturalists and a Naturalist I became. But God knew I had stumbled, and continued through His Spirit to work in turning me to Him, again not through my five senses and evidence within the physical world. He kept saying there is far more, and it is Me you are missing. Well, after seeking to determine if He was, and after experiencing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I knew what I had been missing, and not only I but others on the same five senses path of Naturalistic living.

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Your position appears to be that regardless of the evidence from the investigations into the age of the earth, if we feel like rejecting the evidence and instead adopting a view contrary to the evidence its OK to do that.

That is, if we can call the feeling we have the working of God's spirit.

But the Bible itself argues that reality should intervene to judge between what how we think God is directing us.

Deut 18:22
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
NASU

All those who proclaim, in the name of God, that the earth is only 6000 years old, it seems to me to qualify as prophets who assert the thing that has not come about, has not come true, and therefore their proclamation is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

Deut 18:22
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
NASU

All those who proclaim, in the name of God, that the earth is only 6000 years old, it seems to me to qualify as prophets who assert the thing that has not come about, has not come true, and therefore their proclamation is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

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No personal offense, but if you think biologists are prophets of the Lord then you need some serious counseling. What did the LORD say? From the finger of God Himself, inscribed on a stone tablet He carved out of rock and gave to Moses, the Lord wrote: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

This is the basis of the Fourth Commandment, which Jesus affirmed must be kept. You are deliberately taking the words of the Bible out of context; using an admonition against false prophets to become one yourself. By your own choice of verses, if it did not happen then God did not say it. Conversely, if God said it then it absolutely has to be true. The six day creation was confirmed by God Himself. If you reject this, then you must consider Moses a false prophet; which invalidates most of the Old Testament.

While you were quote mining the Bible did you happen to see the fate of the false prophets? They are cast into the lake of fire. You're treading on very thin ice here; misquoting the Scriptures to try and prove to believers that the Bible is wrong and the work of false prophets.

Does your pastor preach this heresy, or is this just something you copied from unbelievers?

KWCrazy said:

No personal offense, but if you think biologists are prophets of the Lord then you need some serious counseling. What did the LORD say? From the finger of God Himself, inscribed on a stone tablet He carved out of rock and gave to Moses, the Lord wrote: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

This is the basis of the Fourth Commandment, which Jesus affirmed must be kept. You are deliberately taking the words of the Bible out of context; using an admonition against false prophets to become one yourself. By your own choice of verses, if it did not happen then God did not say it. Conversely, if God said it then it absolutely has to be true. The six day creation was confirmed by God Himself. If you reject this, then you must consider Moses a false prophet; which invalidates most of the Old Testament.

While you were quote mining the Bible did you happen to see the fate of the false prophets? They are cast into the lake of fire. You're treading on very thin ice here; misquoting the Scriptures to try and prove to believers that the Bible is wrong and the work of false prophets.

Does your pastor preach this heresy, or is this just something you copied from unbelievers?

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Is there an invisible vault in the skies that holds back waters (firmament)? I just want to know if you really believe the bible or if you believe the parts you want (and then tell people they may be set on fire for quadrillions of years for doing the same).

KWCrazy said:

No personal offense, but if you think biologists are prophets of the Lord then you need some serious counseling. What did the LORD say? From the finger of God Himself, inscribed on a stone tablet He carved out of rock and gave to Moses, the Lord wrote: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

This is the basis of the Fourth Commandment, which Jesus affirmed must be kept. You are deliberately taking the words of the Bible out of context; using an admonition against false prophets to become one yourself. By your own choice of verses, if it did not happen then God did not say it. Conversely, if God said it then it absolutely has to be true. The six day creation was confirmed by God Himself. If you reject this, then you must consider Moses a false prophet; which invalidates most of the Old Testament.

While you were quote mining the Bible did you happen to see the fate of the false prophets? They are cast into the lake of fire. You're treading on very thin ice here; misquoting the Scriptures to try and prove to believers that the Bible is wrong and the work of false prophets.

Does your pastor preach this heresy, or is this just something you copied from unbelievers?

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The scriptures give me comfort in that you threaten me with the lake of fire but since you are way off in regards to reality I don't have to worry about your threats.

This is not only part of Holy Scripture, it actually makes sense.

I am commanded by God not to fear your threats.

Deut 18:22
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
NASU

Heissonear said:

KTS, I've taken a selected portion of what you stated - because of what you state without the add ons is correct - God has made everything have an apparent age from an "only scientific and Naturalistic viewpoint."

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And why would God do that? Why would God make it so that using the gifts of reason and logic that he has given us (and work very well, I might add - they've given us medicine and other wonderful useful things), why would he make it so that using these gifts leads us to the wrong conclusions when they lead to the right conclusions about everything else?

Isn't that intentional deception?

The error is in saying science and the natural realm in and of themselves gives the final answer to this existence. In that specific conclusion of "ad on - what gives the final answer" - such conclusions are not true, is not the case, in accordance to what God has purposed in this Creation. God has the final say between what is true and false, right from wrong, good from evil. He has the final word. That is who and how He is.

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Aren't you just assuming that God is the final answer in order to show that the universe itself isn't?

As mentioned before, I'm a geologist and was made aware of our natural realm long before believing in a God. Through my five senses and scientific inquiry I was lead to be a Naturalists and a Naturalist I became. But God knew I had stumbled, and continued through His Spirit to work in turning me to Him, again not through my five senses and evidence within the physical world. He kept saying there is far more, and it is Me you are missing. Well, after seeking to determine if He was, and after experiencing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I knew what I had been missing, and not only I but others on the same five senses path of Naturalistic living.

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Don't need the personal revelation, such stories are inherently unreliable.

BlueLightningTN said:

Is there an invisible vault in the skies that holds back waters (firmament)? I just want to know if you really believe the bible or if you believe the parts you want (and then tell people they may be set on fire for quadrillions of years for doing the same).

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"Unbelievers have seized upon this singular term in order to depict Genesis as unworthy of acceptance by modern, well-informed, “intelligent” people. For example, the late atheist Isaac Asimov frequently expressed his views on the “scientific absurdity” of the Mosaic record of origins. In volume one (on the Old Testament) of his two-volume set, Asimov’s Guide to the Bible, he denied that Moses wrote the Pentateuch and opted instead for the position known in theological circles as the Documentary Hypothesis (often referred to as the Graf-Wellhausen theory), which suggests that editors (called “redactors”—designated individually as J,D, E, and P) produced the Pentateuch."

The Hebrew raqia (the “firmament” of the KJV, ASV, RSV, et al.) means an “expanse” (Davidson, 1963, p. DCXCII; Wilson, n.d., p. 166), or “something stretched, spread or beaten out” (Maunder, 1939, p. 315; Speiser, 1964, p. 6). Keil and Delitzsch offered this definition in their monumental commentary on the Pentateuch: “to stretch, to spread out, then beat or tread out...the spreading out of air, which surrounds the earth as an atmosphere” (1980, 1:52). In an article discussing the firmament of Genesis 1:6-8, Gary Workman observed that this word is an “unfortunate translation” because it “not only is inaccurate but also has fostered unjust criticism that the Bible erroneously and naively pictures the sky above the earth as a solid dome” (1991, 11[4]:14). Strictly speaking, of course, “firmament” is not actually a translation of raqia at all, but rather, more accurately, a transliteration (i.e., the substitution of a letter in one language for the equivalent letter in another language) of an “unfortunate translation.” Allow me to explain.

The Septuagint (a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek produced by Jewish scholars in the third centuy B.C. at the behest of the Egyptian pharaoh, Ptolemy Philadelphus, for inclusion in his world-famous library in Alexandria) translated raqia into the Greek as stereoma, which connotes a “solid structure” (Arndt and Gingrich, 1967, p. 774). Apparently, the translators of the Septuagint were influenced by the then-popular Egyptian view of cosmology and astronomy [they were, after all, doing their translating in Egypt for an Egyptian pharaoh] that embraced the notion of the heavens being a stone vault. Unfortunately, those Hebrew scholars therefore chose to render raqia via the Greek word stereoma—in order to suggest a firm, solid structure. The Greek connotation thus influenced Jerome to the extent that, when he produced his Latin Vulgate, he used the word firmamentum (meaning a strong or steadfast support—from which the word “firmament” is transliterated) to reflect this pagan concept (McKechinie, 1978, p. 691). In his Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Old Testament scholar W.E. Vine stressed:

While this English word is derived from the Latin firmamentum which signifies firmness or strengthening,...the Hebrew word, raqia, has no such meaning, but denoted the “expanse,” that which was stretched out. Certainly the sky was not regarded as a hard vault in which the heavenly orbs were fixed.... There is therefore nothing in the language of the original to suggest that the writers [of the Old Testament—BT] were influenced by the imaginative ideas of heathen nations (1981, p. 67)."
source

The firmament is the expanse of the universe, as noted by the fact that the sun, moon and stars are in the firmament. This is actually an old argument, used by atheists, unbelievers and the outright untruthful for years. The only new twist is that now we have people using religious icons on a Christian website repeating the lies of the unbelievers. The great deceiver must be very proud.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

The scriptures give me comfort in that you threaten me with the lake of fire but since you are way off in regards to reality I don't have to worry about your threats.

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So are the Scriptures, apparently, because you obvious do not believe they are accurate as written. With regards to the Scriptures, can you tell me which of the 333 miracles in the Bible you believe actually happened? Would you share with us your criteria for deciding which passages you accept and which you reject? If you base it on science that whole death and resurrection story is pretty unbelievable.

"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse." -- Jewish Encyclopedia

"We may understand this name as given to indicate not it is motionless but that it is solid." -- St. Augustine

"You whose clothes get hot
when the south wind brings calm to the land,
can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?"
-- Job 37:17-18

Praise Him, highest heavens,
and you waters above the heavens.
-- Psalms 148:4

Virtually every description of raqia from antiquity to the Renaissance depicts it as solid. The non-solid interpretation of raqia is a novelty.
-- The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point | The BioLogos Forum

"Jews speculated as to what material the firmament was made of: clay or
copper or iron (3 Apoc. Bar. 3.7). They differentiated between the firmament
and the empty space or air between it and the earth (Gen. Rab. 4.3.a; 2 Apoc.
Bar. 21.4). They tried to figure out how thick it was by employing biblical
interpretation (Gen. Rab. 4.5.2). Most tellingly they even tried to calculate
scientifically the thickness of the firmament (Pesab. 49a).
Christians speculated as to whether it was made of earth, air, fire, or
water (the basic elements of Greek science). Origen called the firmament
"without doubt firm and solid" (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71). Ambrose,
commenting on Gen 1:6, said, "the specific solidity of this exterior firma-
ment is meant" (Hexameron, FC 42.60). Augustine said the word firmament
was used "to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that
it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the
waters below" (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61).
Greeks from Anaximenes to Aristotle set forth as scientific fact that the
firmament was made of a crystalline substance to which "the stars are fixed
like nails."44 This idea was passed on for centuries via Ptolemy's Almagest.
The barbarians meanwhile worried about the sky falling on them if they
did not keep their promises!45
Astonishing as it may seem to the modern mind, with very rare excep-
tions the idea that the sky is not solid is a distinctly modern one. Historical
evidence shows that virtually everyone in the ancient world believed in a
solid firmament. Accordingly it is highly probable that the historical mean-
ing of raqiac in Genesis 1 is a solid firmament. Certainly anyone denying the
solidity of the raqiac in Genesis 1 bears a heavy burden of proof. It seems
to me that nothing short of a clear statement to the contrary made by an
OT writer could allow one in good conscience to set aside this clear his-
torical meaning."
-- The Firmament and the Water Above: Seely



In summary, I'm sorry that the evidence does not line up with what you and ApologeticsPress want us to believe.

KWCrazy said:

So are the Scriptures, apparently, because you obvious do not believe they are accurate as written. With regards to the Scriptures, can you tell me which of the 333 miracles in the Bible you believe actually happened? Would you share with us your criteria for deciding which passages you accept and which you reject? If you base it on science that whole death and resurrection story is pretty unbelievable.

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It would take a miracle, wouldn't it.

KTS said:

And why would God do that? Why would God make it so that using the gifts of reason and logic that he has given us (and work very well, I might add - they've given us medicine and other wonderful useful things), why would he make it so that using these gifts leads us to the wrong conclusions when they lead to the right conclusions ...........

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KTS, You have a spirit, you are not just body and soul, with the soul being separated into mind, will, and emotions. God's Spirit made this world, the existence we are in. The Spirit has been working in man since the beginning, to not be just a body and soul person. His intentions were that our spirit would be of predominance, with our soul and body then in subjection and proper balance in how to live.

The Holy Spirit was to always give input and guidance to our spirit, that we could be spiritual and godly in life.

What you are saying is it is normal and right to be soulish. However, we are supposed to be spiritual in how we walk and learn - with our mind not independent but combined to and in subjection to what God teaches us through His Spirit into our spirit. The following Scriptures are examples:


"The [Spiritual] anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things". I John 2:27

"For all who are being lead by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God". Romans 8:14


So far you have been soulish, and have listen to and been taught by other soulish people, people who are dominated by their mind, will, emotions, and five body senses. Soulish people have missed out on what the Spirit teaches, and are not being Spirit led.

That is the error, to be mind dominated; and self and nature taught rather than spirit dominated and taught, with the Holy Spirit leading and teaching us so to balance what we learn from nature.

Again, you skipped this earlier, but God has set up this world without the ability of the soulish, mind dominated people "to find Him". Being soul dominated is not the way!

Hey, I did not Create this world in how it is setup, it His doing. But by His Spirit I'm learning what He has done and what He is up to. Without the Spirit, however, the soulish do not understand many things! They are living and learning without His Anointing, even all the teaching He gives through His Spirit.

So many people do not understand the Kingdom of God in our midst, and God so near and what He is doing and saying! People are living without Him and think such is normal!!!

.

BlueLightningTN said:

"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse." -- Jewish Encyclopedia.

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What they believed is irrelevant because the Bible is the inspired word of God, not the musings of a few Jewish scribes. The Bible is written so that an ordinary man can read and understand, not defensively to prevent against its language being used out of context by a liar with sinister motives. Take for example, what the devil said to Jesus. It was true, but taken out of context to promote his lie.

We expect that of the devil and his followers. We do not expect it from Christians.

Hypocrite! You pick and choose what you want of God's word! God says there is a domed vault that holds back the waters He separated - yet because of your scientific mind you deny His teachings! You are no better than the evolutionists!

BlueLightningTN said:

Hypocrite! You pick and choose what you want of God's word! God says there is a domed vault that holds back the waters He separated - yet because of your scientific mind you deny His teachings! You are no better than the evolutionists!

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Now now, being an evolutionists isn't so bad, its merely another understanding of the means God used to create.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

Now now, being an evolutionists isn't so bad, its merely another understanding of the means God used to create.

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And a much more useful one, at that.

Originally Posted by AV1611VET

No.

If you look at these things as "easter eggs," rather than attempts to deceive, then the paradox clears up.

Let's take a look at one.

David, holding a rock in his hand, may say that the rock couldn't be older than 4000 years old, based on the genealogies of the Scriptures.

But David would be wrong -- a fact that would not come out for thousands of years to come, when radiometric dating discovers this major "easter egg."

It's not that God "hid the age" of the rock from David -- it's that David didn't have the tools or the know-how to ascertain the rock's age in the first place.

Make sense?
​

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So if David was to know about radiometric dating, what would his conclusion have been?

Also, not sure how easter eggs has anything to do with rocks.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7549658-3/#post57279750

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

My crew is in the process of developing a cannon that will be able to launch different colored easter eggs on Easter Sunday.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

So if David was to know about radiometric dating, what would his conclusion have been?

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That the rock is much much older.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Also, not sure how easter eggs has anything to do with rocks.

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The term "easter eggs" is a video game term for hidden amenities within a game.

I don't know any specific examples, but by way of [made-up] example:

Playing Jack Nicklaus gold, and saving the game by entering "BLINKY" in the save box, could bring up a game of Pac Man embedded in the game.

BlueLightningTN said:

Hypocrite! You pick and choose what you want of God's word! God says there is a domed vault that holds back the waters He separated

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The word is "firmament," and its meaning has been explained.
Anyone who denies that God created the world in six days; that he created Adam from the dust of the earth; and that He once destroyed the world with a great flood has no business calling anyone else names. You take words of Scripture out of context. You aren't the first to do so, of course.

Matthew 4:
5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and had Him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”