My problem with the protesters

[trunks2k]

Then figure out where the problem is! Don't throw the good out with the bad, throw out only the bad.

In the eyes of some, the "good" is so infected with bad that the whole thing needs to be tossed out and rebuilt. If I like my staircase and fireplace in my house, but the plumbing & electric are outdated, the roof it leaking, the plaster is cracked, the heat barely works; I might have to gut the whole house to fix it all. If the foundation is broken, I might have to tear down the whole house. Maybe I can re-install that fireplace and staircase, maybe I can't.

People say the problem with police is just a few bad apples. They never seem to finish the phrase... "A few bad apples spoils the bunch". People have an issue with the overall culture of the police and what has allowed that culture to exist. After the events around me, I'm pretty well convinced that the police department needs a lot of changes. Given the system in place, it may not be possible to make the changes without rebuilding from the ground up. Change would mean at the very least getting rid of certain people in leadership roles (i.e. some precinct captains need to go entirely, rather than just be shifted to other precincts). Given the police union, that may not be possible unless the whole department is dissolved and re-built.

Going back to the house analogy some, imagine I want to fix my house by just fixing the broken parts, but there is someone else telling me "I'm from the Historical Commission. I filed an injunction against you from fixing anything in this house as long as it stands." Well, I might need to make sure the house isn't standing any more.

 

[Arc F1]

The police were used for almost a century to keep darker skinned minorities from moving freely in society. A lot of time they were the ones doing the abusing . With the encouragement of the government. The systemic abuse of minorities started to become illegal and some people haven’t figured that out . A lot of them are police. Minorities are sick and tired of this. They’re tired of being treated like we deserve the abuse because somehow ( according to them ) we’re less than . We stopped believing those lies long ago and are tired of waiting for fair treatment. Being stopped for a minor traffic violation shouldn’t be a reason to fear for your life

You might not believe it happens to whites because it's never reported on. I as a white man have been unjustly beaten into the ground by the police and spent the weekend in jail all because some guy stole my identity and didn't return to court. I didn't get a spot on the news. Had they just looked at the mugshot and seen the difference in skin color this would have been avoided. I still resent the police for that. All I got was a "your free to go" after the weekend in jail. Everyone just laughed at my black eye and bruises.

 

[Arc F1]

Apart from entering the country illegally and getting jobs that theoretically could've gone to someone else, you mean?

A lot of 60hr jobs in construction went to the guys working for 200 a week. BTW 60 includes health and welfare.

 

[iluvatar5150]

True! Change did not happen over night, but it did happen and for the past 2 years they have been meeting the standards. So what do they want to change? Do they want to get rid of the consent degree and replace it with something else? These are the questions they need to answer

The link you posted earlier shows the city itself trying to get rid of the consent decree.

And if you have these questions, why don't you spend some time reading local Seattle newspapers and reading locally-themed discussion groups (e.g. Reddit) to see if folks have talked about them? This kind of stuff gets talked about in Baltimore all the time, but it never makes the national news. Your ignorance of these discussions doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

The link you posted earlier shows the city itself trying to get rid of the consent decree.

The consent decree was never a permanent policy, it was a way of teaching them how to behave. Once learned, it was intended to go away. The City said they've learned and now it is time for the oversight to go away.

And if you have these questions, why don't you spend some time reading local Seattle newspapers and reading locally-themed discussion groups (e.g. Reddit) to see if folks have talked about them?

What makes you think I haven't already done this?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

My employment has never been a legally dubious proposition that costs somebody else anything. Countries have borders. Borders are real. And borders must be protected.

This really gets me especially when liberals want things like socialized medicine. That is expensive enough for natives and legal residents, but when you couple that with open borders policies it effectively means you are paying for the health care of a nice chunk of Latin American besides the US.

And mind you are doing that without receiving income tax from these people.....

It also is a false claim that they are not taking jobs from Americans. Steven Crowder did a great video a few years back of wanting to hire workers at one of those hang outs by Home Depot and similar home improvements stores. All the illegals were holding out for 15$ an hour in cash. He however was only going to pay $10 an hour cash and managed to get a crew of local Southerners to do it for that. As he was driving a way the illegals cussed at his truck load of Southerners and complained that "they were stealing their jobs".

I will also add that I have worked plenty of jobs for less money. The jobs were on average much easier, things like Security etc. but definitely not tax free, and much more red tape to get.

Also for Americans that need "survival jobs" (like me quite often in the past) there saturation of the market greatly depresses the wage market....

 

[Ken-1122]

In the eyes of some, the "good" is so infected with bad that the whole thing needs to be tossed out and rebuilt. If I like my staircase and fireplace in my house, but the plumbing & electric are outdated, the roof it leaking, the plaster is cracked, the heat barely works; I might have to gut the whole house to fix it all. If the foundation is broken, I might have to tear down the whole house. Maybe I can re-install that fireplace and staircase, maybe I can't.

In your house analogy, it sounds like at least you know what is wrong with the house, (plumbing, electrical, roof etc) it’s not like because a house in a different state is damaged beyond repair, you’ve concluded your house needs to come down as well.

People say the problem with police is just a few bad apples. They never seem to finish the phrase... "A few bad apples spoils the bunch". People have an issue with the overall culture of the police and what has allowed that culture to exist. After the events around me, I'm pretty well convinced that the police department needs a lot of changes. Given the system in place, it may not be possible to make the changes without rebuilding from the ground up. Change would mean at the very least getting rid of certain people in leadership roles (i.e. some precinct captains need to go entirely, rather than just be shifted to other precincts). Given the police union, that may not be possible unless the whole department is dissolved and re-built.

I personally know quite a number of out of town people who went to Seattle to protest, and these people have never had any negative encounters with the Seattle police, (they may have had negative encounters with the police in their city, or even other cities; but not Seattle) yet they are protesting to change or even disband the Seattle police. Does this make sense to you?

Going back to the house analogy some, imagine I want to fix my house by just fixing the broken parts, but there is someone else telling me "I'm from the Historical Commission. I filed an injunction against you from fixing anything in this house as long as it stands." Well, I might need to make sure the house isn't standing any more.

Perhaps you should first fight to get rid of the historical commission.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

This really gets me especially when liberals want things like socialized medicine. That is expensive enough for natives and legal residents, but when you couple that with open borders policies it effectively means you are paying for the health care of a nice chunk of Latin American besides the US.

And mind you are doing that without receiving income tax from these people.....

I don't see how this is more expensive than our current system - in fact, socialized medicine would be much cheaper, even including people who don't pay tax.

It also is a false claim that they are not taking jobs from Americans.

Steven Crowder did a great video a few years back of wanting to hire workers at one of those hang outs by Home Depot and similar home improvements stores. All the illegals were holding out for 15$ an hour in cash. He however was only going to pay $10 an hour cash and managed to get a crew of local Southerners to do it for that. As he was driving a way the illegals cussed at his truck load of Southerners and complained that "they were stealing their jobs".

I will also add that I have worked plenty of jobs for less money. The jobs were on average much easier, things like Security etc. but definitely not tax free, and much more red tape to get.

It astounds me how conservative Americans howl about low-end, min wage or lower, manual labor and often off-the-books (i.e. illegal) jobs being taken by "illegals" while they don't care about corporations paying politicians to legalize the visas of immigrants from India, China, Russia, etc. for the sole purpose of taking high end jobs (especially technology jobs) from Americans. Penny-wise and pound foolish, but of course the racism works better against poor "illegals" than middle class corporate imported cheap labor.

You're upset that someone is taking a $12/hr. manual labor job from Americans but no worries about the many, many more taking $70-200k+ jobs from Americans. HUH??? SERIOUSLY??? That's like me being upset that someone from Mexico got a job pumping gas in my city while I lost out on a tech job in my city that would have paid me $100k to someone from India who will do it for $45k.

Are there any manual labor jobs that you wanted that you lost to "illegals"?? Do tell.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It astounds me how conservative Americans howl about low-end, min wage or lower, manual labor and often off-the-books (i.e. illegal) jobs being taken by "illegals" while they don't care about corporations paying politicians to legalize the visas of immigrants from India, China, Russia, etc. for the sole purpose of taking high end jobs (especially technology jobs) from Americans. Penny-wise and pound foolish, but of course the racism works better against poor "illegals" than middle class corporate imported cheap labor.

Not true. We actually do care, that is one thing we had against B. Clinton back in the day (among many other things). Living in Silicon Valley in a household that was right out of the "Gen X" novel that popularized that term. A rental house populated by 20 somethings all working in the Valley. Clinton flooded the market with white collar green card carryer, trying to "break the middle class" as my best friend put it. That really PO'd him. Because you needed to be 120K $ to just be regular middle class there. And you had all these 60K $ Indians, Chinese etc. brought in as virtual serfs to the companies where they were working 60+ hours

 

[Aryeh Jay]

A lot of 60hr jobs in construction went to the guys working for 200 a week. BTW 60 includes health and welfare.

And clearly the best course of action is to go after and demonize the people willing to work for such low wages and give the people who employ them and encourage more of them to come here a free pass.

God bless capitalism and the people who profit from it.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What makes you think I haven't already done this?

Call it a hunch.

 

[Ken-1122]

Call it a hunch.

Your hunch needs work.

 

[Brightmoon]

New York City cops usually aren’t stupid arrogant racists like that . If they are they’d be in big trouble because Queens in NYC is the most ethnically and racially diverse neighborhood in the world .

 

[Brightmoon]

I had a blond blue eyed white girlfriend who used to get tickets for driving while black because her boyfriend was Hispanic . The harassment eventually broke them up. You don’t have to tell me that this doesn’t happen to white people because it does. Some police will target you if they don’t like you

 

[Brightmoon]

But in fact, in that very speech that is so often referred to by critics and in which he stated that some of the illegals are rapists, etc. he also said explicitly that other illegals are NOT like that.

Naturally, that part never is mentioned by the opponents of the President.


You are right about that. However, it wouldn't serve the larger interests of Antifa or its co-workers if what you point to were to be acknowledged and addressed.

possibly because trump has a decades long HISTORY of being a blatant racist .

 

[Crimson Dragon]

The police, in general, brought this widespread public wrath upon themselves, in my opinion. The growing mistrust and anger toward the police across the country certainly didn't happen overnight. I personally believe that some hefty police reform across the country is way overdue.

The video I posted was sent to me by a friend and it offers one of the best explanations on the reasons why people are turning against the police. It's about 52 minutes in length, but I strongly recommend watching it in its entirety. David Wood shares a powerful message (and testimony).

Video summary:

Recent protests and riots have made one thing abundantly clear: Some people hate police officers. Why do some people become enraged at an entire police force and the entire criminal justice system when a particular officer kills someone? Why are some people so angry that they want to defund the police or abolish police entirely? David Wood (an ex-con) discusses various examples of misconduct by police officers and correctional officers, and the impact these encounters have on suspects, inmates, and entire communities. He concludes with some suggestions for police reform.

 

[Halbhh]

Now; some of these same people who accused Trump of painting all illegals with a broad brush are doing the same thing to the Police!

How many are doing that wrong of painting the wrongs of a few police officers onto all police? -- how many in this group --

Why Tim Keller, Max Lucado, and Hundreds of Evangelical Leaders Oppose Trump’s Refugee Ban
Regardless of court fight’s final outcome, fewer persecuted Christians will make it to America under president’s plan.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/n...ax-lucado-evangelicals-trump-refugee-ban.html

1 or 2?

None?

Maybe even none, is one possibility, but I'd guess under 5, but am open to learn otherwise, if you can show examples.

 

[Halbhh]

I have a different take on Illegals due to my experience. Being in construction I've been around thousands and thousands of Illegals.

I don't know if I was unusually lucky, but the ones I actually worked shoulder to shoulder -- for example at one point digging out a new footing under an foundation, literally shoulder to shoulder at times -- those illegal immigrants were the 'salt of the earth' --

Just truly good people you'd be so happy to know, I found out, over months of time working with them.

Another one would fix people's cars for very little money, sometimes for free, according to whether the person was in need.

It seemed the ones I knew in Austin where like a bunch of saints.

Back in my childhood when we lived on the border, and a Mexican maid walked across the border to cook and clean for us, she seemed a nice person also, totally trustworthy. We even took her camping with us, just because we loved her so much.

Maybe this is about....individual experiences.

So many people can easily believe the worst about an entire huge diverse group, based on hearing something bad about just a few.

Painting the wrongs of the few onto the many is something we all need to avoid, always.

 

[Crimson Dragon]

possibly because trump has a decades long HISTORY of being a blatant racist .

And that has been verified by his niece, Mary Trump, who has a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology.

President's niece Mary Trump claims she has heard him use the N-word and anti-Semitic slurs

 

[Brightmoon]

I don't know if I was unusually lucky, but the ones I actually worked shoulder to shoulder -- for example at one point digging out a new footing under an foundation, literally shoulder to shoulder at times -- those illegal immigrants were the 'salt of the earth' --

Just truly good people you'd be so happy to know, I found out, over months of time working with them.

Another one would fix people's cars for very little money, sometimes for free, according to whether the person was in need.

It seemed the ones I knew in Austin where like a bunch of saints.

Back in my childhood when we lived on the border, and a Mexican maid walked across the border to cook and clean for us, she seemed a nice person also, totally trustworthy. We even took her camping with us, just because we loved her so much.

Maybe this is about....individual experiences.

So many people can easily believe the worst about an entire huge diverse group, based on hearing something bad about just a few.

Painting the wrongs of the few onto the many is something we all need to avoid, always.

those positive behaviors are what I experienced with my Chinese and Hispanic neighbors and a lot of them don’t speak English . It’s usually people who don’t live around them that think these toxic things