My problem with Evangelical Christianity

[Ellwood3]

Atheism

Atheism promotes a person’s intellect to be a guide, then makes reference to that guide for its evidence that the guide is right. Atheists can be as self-righteous as the most frustrating kind of Evangelicals.


Like Evangelicals, they have a gospel to promote. That boils down to “I am so certain I am correct in all my thinking that I am sure God does not exist.” But a person cannot be sure of this. Yet they are. Atheists are the counterpoints of fierce Evangelicals, certain they are right and sure of the means of arriving at their conclusions. It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. Agnostics are much safer in saying they don’t know whether God exists or not.

Mequa, you said in Post 1:


[FONT=&quot]"I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis."
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But you can't know it, whether or not it appears comforting. Maybe there is something you miss in Christianity because of the dogma and unkindness you have been dealing with, but atheism, in my opinion, is a lot worse as an option, and do know, I know many Christians who, if I used them as a guide, I'd want nothing to do with Christianity or faith.



But don't kid yourself about reason being reductionist.



Naturalism is by its nature, reductionary. It assumes what can be seen is all that is there. But if there is more to life, the assumption of it is based is an error.

You wrote (Post 1):


"Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire."



That reminds me of the book The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis (letters of instruction written by a demon to his nephew demon about how to tempt someone to be led astray) and a book called His Infernal Majesty: Satan’s Ten Most Believable Lies by Dave Breese. The second lie is “God is a Cosmic Sadist.”



I think in assuming there is no enemy of God, you have wrongly assumed characteristics of the Enemy are characteristics of God.



That is an easy mistake to make, but it is a huge one.


I will return to Gnosticism:



Mequa wrote:


"I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.


I prefer the Gospel of Thomas to fundamentalist Christianity. This quote, for example, is something I would say makes far more sense in terms of a form of salvation than relying on someone bleeding on a cross:

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."




As I said before, is it true? It may sound good, but is it true? If there is anger in a person and they bring forth anger will anger save them? And if they don’t bring anger forth anger will destroy them? What about rage? Hate? Love? Bigotry? Sadism?


It is false. However good it sounds.


That is about the best Pagels has to offer. She does not give the full text, but analyzes it to harmonize with her thinking. Yet Pagels is not an ascetic as the original Gnostics were.





Ben Witherington wrote (in What Have They Done with Jesus?: Beyond Strange Theories and Bad History—Why We Can Trust the Bible) :


"In light of the evidence of the primary sources themselves, it is puzzling why scholars such as Elaine Pagels, Karen King, Stephen Patterson, Marvin Meyer and James Robinson would find this material so exciting. None of them are actually ascetics like the original Gnostics, nor have they withdrawn from the world and anathematized the goodness of things material. Frankly, the Old Gnostics would have repudiated the new ones, and would even have rejected their revisionist take on Christian history."


Pagels's philosophy is useless. She examines only a portion of one of the Nag Hammadi works--and even the one quote she's best known for is not even true.



How about Epicurus? He encouraged people to think there is no afterlife, and also that therefore enjoy life engage in the “good life.” But is it true?


Atheists may find peace in believing there is no afterlife, but is it true?


Naturalism is full of untestable assumptions about reality. It's empty.




And Nietzsche?


You quote him. Understand that besides declaring God dead, Nietzsche also lied in telling people there is no truth. Do you know he even said there are no facts? Though people in despair will often turn to him, he has nothing to offer.



So often, people run across Christians who are not Christ-like. They're not even nice. And they are turned off to the Christian God because of that.



Maybe what that means is that God is willing to rescue even people who are not likable.



In C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, he has a chapter about this issue, where he talks about we can't assume because we know there are people like this that Christianity is false. How much worse may they have been without Jesus?


These apparent "better" ideas -- Atheism, Gnosticism, Epicureanism, Naturalism, and Nihilism --all things you have brought up exist on a sort of continuum.


The person assumes they can know there is no God (perhaps due to fear of Hell and damnation) so they grab fast onto atheism. Gnosticism (at least the strange new kind from Pagels) tells you you can be your own Savior. That's a lie. Epicureanism tells you to have fun without guilt, because there are no eternal consequences. People often find life very empty seeking that kind of satisfaction. Naturalism states falsehoods about existence, making assumptions, and Nihilism robs people of their dignity. Nietzsche is nobody's friend.



So continue to search. But be sure if you invite Jesus into your life, He is not the evil you see in this world.



I encourage you to search. Use truth as your light.

 

[Hawkins]

Their presentations may not be proper but on the other hand a truth may not be always pleasant.

 

[South Bound]

I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.

Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.

I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.

I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.

As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.

Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.

I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.

I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.

Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.

I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.

I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.

I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.


Kind regards,

Mequa

That's fine. You're welcome to reject Christianity.

But don't insult us by presenting a straw man version of Christianity and tell us that's what Christianity teaches.

 

[oi_antz]

But don't insult us by presenting a straw man version of Christianity and tell us that's what Christianity teaches.

This is good advice, but it does fail to see what is going on, and it does nothing to help this person, who has come along here and asked for help. This person is expressing their frustrations, and in doing so, appears to get some relief by describing the source of frustration in a way that may insult those who have been identified as the ones who have caused the frustration. I can understand why this might feel relieving, and I think it is something to do with revenge (eye for an eye). Forgiveness is very difficult, and everyone should know that. So I think that your response here does not really help in any way, since it does not really address the frustrations this person has. It only says in essence "if you just want to insult me, then shut up". But this person clearly has not come here to just insult people. The entire purpose of this thread is to express a frustration, explain why they think it is not right, and to seek some comfort and support from those who might like to offer it in light of some knowledge of God.

When you see someone crying, what do you do? What you have done with this comment equates to saying "stop crying, it annoys me".

 

[LilLamb219]

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[South Bound]

That's fine that you feel that way, oi_antz.

I disagree.

 

[Ellwood3]

This is good advice, but it does fail to see what is going on, and it does nothing to help this person, who has come along here and asked for help. This person is expressing their frustrations, and in doing so, appears to get some relief by describing the source of frustration in a way that may insult those who have been identified as the ones who have caused the frustration. I can understand why this might feel relieving, and I think it is something to do with revenge (eye for an eye). Forgiveness is very difficult, and everyone should know that. So I think that your response here does not really help in any way, since it does not really address the frustrations this person has. It only says in essence "if you just want to insult me, then shut up". But this person clearly has not come here to just insult people. The entire purpose of this thread is to express a frustration, explain why they think it is not right, and to seek some comfort and support from those who might like to offer it in light of some knowledge of God.

When you see someone crying, what do you do? What you have done with this comment equates to saying "stop crying, it annoys me".

I totally agree. People are allowed to come to this area of the site with struggles, that is what this is for. This is not the place for angry arguments against people who are in pain.

When someone has met Christians who have wounded them deeply so that even years later there is a negative impact and a negative impact in seeking the God of Christianity, and the person shows courage to come to and discuss it with Christians, that person deserves decent treatment and respect.

Yes, such a one may have some erroneous ideas about God, but sarcastic comments about there being "strawmen" help no one. This post is not directed to any one poster, but simply a reminder to treat non-Christians with courtesy. There are other places on this site to argue with non-Christians. "Struggles" is not one of them.

 

[aiki]

Courtesy and respect is a two-way street.

 

[oi_antz]

Courtesy and respect is a two-way street.

the antonyms are contagious disease too, which infects everyone coming in contact with them.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

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