My Personal Views

[SkyWriting]

The answer to all your questions lies in what happened before Genesis One. The creation of mortal man is the beginning of the 'restitution of all things', not the beginning of the earth and universe. Restitution means to restore or repair that which was damaged or destroyed.

Consider that sin and the knowledge of evil existed prior to the creation of man. So the sin of Adam and Eve wasn't the first sin, as most suppose. God orchestrated the reinactment of the very first sin using Adam and Eve. It is the reinactment of a previous 'Paradise Lost'. It is God's plan to restore that paradise, but with different 'loved ones', that will remain ever faithful to Him. Adam and Eve had no choice in the matter, but followed the 'script' written for them by God.

Wow, that's a new insight for me anyway. I'll have to keep that idea open for review.

But first, I'll have to condemn your tone. God is there at the beginning and at the end already. So if what you say has merit, then Adam & Eve are a reflection of other spiritual events. Not simply re-enacting like a Civil War battle.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I just read Genesis 3, it doesn't say anything of the sort. What verse specifically are you referring to?

The account reveals these things without stating them directly, with help from other related scriptures. For example Paul reveals that Eve was mostly to blame and that Adam was not deceived, implying that Eve was. This in turn implies that Eve was misled by the subtil lies of the serpent. Eve describes herself as being 'beguiled', which is basically the same thing.

The bible is God's revelation to the believer. Unbelievers can easily determine what it says, but the believer can determine what it means on a deeper level. It's the same with the theory of evolution; if you don't believe it you cannot understand it.

 

[CabVet]

The account reveals these things without stating them directly, with help from other related scriptures. For example Paul reveals that Eve was mostly to blame and that Adam was not deceived, implying that Eve was. This in turn implies that Eve was misled by the subtil lies of the serpent. Eve describes herself as being 'beguiled', which is basically the same thing.

The bible is God's revelation to the believer. Unbelievers can easily determine what it says, but the believer can determine what it means on a deeper level. It's the same with the theory of evolution; if you don't believe it you cannot understand it.

In other words, the Bible can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Evolution does not require belief.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So if what you say has merit, then Adam & Eve are a reflection of other spiritual events.

Bullseye.

Not simply re-enacting like a Civil War battle

Yer right; 're-enactment' might not be the best way to describe the event. I chose it because the story so plainly reveals what (must have) happened in the spirit realm. 'Allegory' might have been a better choice.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is complete and utter twaddle.
The Bible tells us in Genesis that the Christian God set things up to fail, if the God is supposed to know everything there is nothing a Christian can say against that statement, if he doesn't know everything then the argument stops there.

Evolution is based on evidence that everyone can see, deist or theist, no belief required.

That God 'set it up' must be inferred by the reader through the study of the whole of the bible, as the account doesn't imply this at all. That you believe this reveals that you and others can see that there is much written 'between the lines' of the story. For this I applaud you.

Evolution is based on evidence that is so complicated and tedious that the average person simply 'believes' it because smarter people than them 'say so'. So, as in religion, the true believer, through believing study, comes to an understanding of it that far surpasses the unschooled.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If I was religious I would pray for you because it sounds like you need all the help you can get, you are ignorant,
and I have a feeling it's self inflicted because you could learn if you wanted to but you just don't wanna.

So you would pray that I study evolution? To whom would you pray?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In other words, the Bible can mean whatever you want it to mean.

No, but it means more than it says. That's why it must be studied, not just read.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Evolution is based on evidence that is so complicated and tedious that the average person simply 'believes' it because smarter people than them 'say so'. So, as in religion, the true believer, through believing study, comes to an understanding of it that far surpasses the unschooled.

Erm, in my experience most people find evolution fairly straightforward if it is explained to them correctly. But having to spend a lifetime understanding the bible seems to imply that it isn't fit for purpose. Of course, the fault may not lie with the Bible, but with what people want it to say.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Erm, in my experience most people find evolution fairly straightforward if it is explained to them correctly. But having to spend a lifetime understanding the bible seems to imply that it isn't fit for purpose. Of course, the fault may not lie with the Bible, but with what people want it to say.

True. The fault is with the reader, not the author.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I suppose that's in order to see where you can get the words to mean something other that what they say.
Why is this message so hard to see? why must you study it in order to understand it? surly it was designed to be understood by everyone not just the smart and the talented?

Scripture reveals that indeed an inspired 'minister' is necessary for understanding God's word. But the hearer is also adjured to continue seeking even greater understanding. And like any other activity the elements of time and experience come into play.

For more than the first thousand years of it's life the Bible was never even read by the masses so they were forced to believe what the educated classes wanted them to believe, now I think creationists believe what they are told to believe so not a lot has changed.

By 'educated classes' you mean.....???????

 

[dad]

In other words, the Bible can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Evolution does not require belief.

If part of the meaning of evolution that you think of includes any evolving starting somewhere other than created kinds, (like the pond or etc) yes, it is 100% belief. Nothing else whatsoever.

 

[dad]

Erm, in my experience most people find evolution fairly straightforward if it is explained to them correctly. But having to spend a lifetime understanding the bible seems to imply that it isn't fit for purpose. Of course, the fault may not lie with the Bible, but with what people want it to say.

It says the heaven and earth and us were created. The problem is not with His word.

 

[dad]

It's all in there. Here's one:

Genesis 3 reveals that evil (sin) existed (thus the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) before Eve and Adam sinned. The serpent lied to Eve, thus 'bearing false witness' existed before the 'fall'. Sin came into the human age with the fall of Adam and Eve, but originated with the fall of (the one known as) Lucifer.

So? Nowhere does it say that the universe we live in that was created as He explained was the place where some former rebellion (evil) happened...does it? So, all we have here, is a choice, so that man could maybe not make the mistake others made before man and our universe exited.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So? Nowhere does it say that the universe we live in that was created as He explained was the place where some former rebellion (evil) happened...does it? So, all we have here, is a choice, so that man could maybe not make the mistake others made before man and our universe existed.

Jude reveals that the sinning angels left their 'habitation', which was the earth. So the true original sin occurred after the creation of the material universe. If this were not important God would not have revealed it to us.

 

[dad]

Jude reveals that the sinning angels left their 'habitation', which was the earth. So the true original sin occurred after the creation of the material universe. If this were not important God would not have revealed it to us.

Proof that earth was original habitation of angels? Come on now.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Proof that earth was original habitation of angels? Come on now.

Actual proof of anything is hard to come by, but I believe that while
the original habitation of the angels was in the spirit realm God created the earth as a special dwelling place for them. Job 38:4-7 alludes to this:


4"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

The fact that angels can take human form reveals that they could have enjoyed all the sensations that we enjoy, and on a perfect earth. I believe it was God's gift to them.

 

[dad]

Actual proof of anything is hard to come by, but I believe that while
the original habitation of the angels was in the spirit realm God created the earth as a special dwelling place for them. Job 38:4-7 alludes to this:


4"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

So there were spectators. That doesn't mean they were made on earth, let alone lived here for millions of imagined years before Adam. Ridiculous.

The fact that angels can take human form reveals that they could have enjoyed all the sensations that we enjoy, and on a perfect earth. I believe it was God's gift to them.

So what, guess Who else took human form!? Besides, just because angels appeared to Abraham does not mean God made them in his tent.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So there were spectators. That doesn't mean they were made on earth, let alone lived here for millions of imagined years before Adam. Ridiculous.
So what, guess Who else took human form!? Besides, just because angels appeared to Abraham does not mean God made them in his tent.

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Scanman43]

Jude reveals that the sinning angels left their 'habitation', which was the earth. So the true original sin occurred after the creation of the material universe. If this were not important God would not have revealed it to us.

Jude was quoting from 'The Book of Enoch'.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

ForAll I think you are being very kind to an old man.

Wadaminute, seventy is the new fifty!