My Personal Views

[quatona]

That means that at one time, everything was much, much closer together than it is now.

Ah - I thought it meant God had a hand.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thru the Bible Commentary By J. Vernon McGee

Oh, that we had more J. Vernon McGees!

 

[AV1611VET]

The problems start when God creates things with evidence of a past.

Embedded age = maturity without history.

Are you assuming that Adam looked around and thought the earth had aged to perfection?

He may have for a moment, but remember that God walked with him and talked with him; and the result is Adam writing Genesis 1, in which he doesn't mention having any such problems.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ah - I thought it meant God had a hand.

Is He not supposed to?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Embedded age = maturity without history.

Are you assuming that Adam looked around and thought the earth had aged to perfection?

He may have for a moment, but remember that God walked with him and talked with him; and the result is Adam writing Genesis 1, in which he doesn't mention having any such problems.

God may not have mentioned His subterfuge to him. It doesn't really matter, because as soon as you have the world/universe telling a different story from the one He decides to tell you later then you have absolutely no way of knowing which to believe. None. It's all over. There is no way of knowing if you are being lied to. The whole thing falls apart.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are being logical and you know that creationists do not do logic, believe believe believe that's all they were told.
They believe because they were told to believe not because it's right, in fact they don't care either way, right or wrong.

It's that way in your mind. If you are around them, then you'd know better.

 

[SkyWriting]

God may not have mentioned His subterfuge to him. It doesn't really matter, because as soon as you have the world/universe telling a different story from the one He decides to tell you later then you have absolutely no way of knowing which to believe. None. It's all over. There is no way of knowing if you are being lied to. The whole thing falls apart.

It's like when Jesus told the guy to get up and walk. He knows for a fact that his legs don't work. Never have. Yet now he's walking and he shakes his fist at God...."Why are you confusing me like this? All my relatives will think I was faking the whole thing! Now my entire life as an invalid is a lie. Thanks for nutin' God." Now my whole life has fallen apart!

 

[Mr Strawberry]

It's like when Jesus told the guy to get up and walk. He knows for a fact that his legs don't work. Never have. Yet now he's walking and he shakes his fist at God...."Why are you confusing me like this? All my relatives will think I was faking the whole thing! Now my entire life as an invalid is a lie. Thanks for nutin' God." Now my whole life has fallen apart!

No, it's nothing like that. If however, he was told that he'd been a famous marathon runner all his life, even though as far as he knew he'd been a cripple, and even though everyone who knew him would tell you he was a cripple who had never run in his life, then you might be getting closer.

But even then it still doesn't begin to do justice the complete disaster of the embedded argument, as the analogy is inadequate.

 

[SkyWriting]

That started up a whole new business for some people, and a very good living they make too preying on the gullible.

That would suggest that it actually happened. I'm impressed with your faith.

 

[Happy Ness]

That would suggest that it actually happened. I'm impressed with your faith.

Of course it happened, would Christians tell lies?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This is a majestic verse. It is a tremendous verse. I am of the opinion that it is the doorway through which you will have to walk into the Bible. You have to believe that God is the Creator, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is.

I have always felts that Genesis 1:1 was a beginning 'tltle', not just a 'verse', thus:

In the Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.​

And it came to pass that the earth became an empty wasteland, and the spirit of God considered the condition of the face of the sea......(Gap Theory)​

 

[jpcedotal]

I have always felts that Genesis 1:1 was a beginning 'tltle', not just a 'verse', thus:

In the Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.​

And it came to pass that the earth became an empty wasteland, and the spirit of God considered the condition of the face of the sea......(Gap Theory)​

Historic Context of the Verse:
One of the easiest ways to misinterpret a verse or passage is to ignore the Biblical history behind the verse. In other words the “Who, To Whom, What, When, Where, and Why” of a verse or passage. Moses (who) wrote the Pentateuch (what), the first five books of the Bible in which Genesis 1:1 is the first verse of, for the people of Israel (to whom) after God, through Moses, lead them out of Egypt but before Moses’ death around 1450-1410 B.C (when). At this time, the Israelites were wandering the desert somewhere between Egypt and the Jordan River (where).God inspired Moses to keep a written record of His Divine Instruction which consisted of (1) the Law, (2) the covenants between God and His people, (3) and finally the argument of how FAITH, NOT LAW was the key to an everlasting relationship with Him (why). [ii]
Focusing back on Genesis 1:1 while still keeping the Biblical History in context, we can see that the main goal of God was not to begin a step-by-step manual of how He created the heaven and earth, but simply state the fact that HE CREATED IT. God intentionally leaves out the “how” in verse 1. Beginning with verse 2 through Genesis 2:3, God does go into some detail on how he fills the heaven and earth, but He never goes back and explains how He created the world (heaven and earth) to begin with. To me, this indicates that the “how”, here, is unimportant because as John Nelson Darby states:

“This revelation from God (the Bible as a whole, and Genesis in particular) is not a history by Him of all that He has done, but what has been given to man for his profit, the truth as to what he has to say to us. Its object is to communicate to man all that regards his own relationship with God.”[iii]
​

Our relationship with God is all that matters and the Bible gives us all the information we need in order to have that correct, everlasting relationship with God. Questions such as “What was God doing before Creation?” and “When did Satan fall in relation to Creation?” should be irrelevant to us because they are irrelevant to our relationship with God.

[FONT=&quot][ii][/FONT] © Copyright 2000-2011 BasicTheology.com. All rights reserved.

[FONT=&quot][iii][/FONT] Synopsis of the Old and New Testaments by John Nelson Darby (1800 - 1882)

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Historic Context of the Verse:
One of the easiest ways to misinterpret a verse or passage is to ignore the Biblical history behind the verse. In other words the “Who, To Whom, What, When, Where, and Why” of a verse or passage. Moses (who) wrote the Pentateuch (what), the first five books of the Bible in which Genesis 1:1 is the first verse of, for the people of Israel (to whom) after God, through Moses, lead them out of Egypt but before Moses’ death around 1450-1410 B.C (when). At this time, the Israelites were wandering the desert somewhere between Egypt and the Jordan River (where).God inspired Moses to keep a written record of His Divine Instruction which consisted of (1) the Law, (2) the covenants between God and His people, (3) and finally the argument of how FAITH, NOT LAW was the key to an everlasting relationship with Him (why). [ii]
Focusing back on Genesis 1:1 while still keeping the Biblical History in context, we can see that the main goal of God was not to begin a step-by-step manual of how He created the heaven and earth, but simply state the fact that HE CREATED IT. God intentionally leaves out the “how” in verse 1. Beginning with verse 2 through Genesis 2:3, God does go into some detail on how he fills the heaven and earth, but He never goes back and explains how He created the world (heaven and earth) to begin with. To me, this indicates that the “how”, here, is unimportant because as John Nelson Darby states:

“This revelation from God (the Bible as a whole, and Genesis in particular) is not a history by Him of all that He has done, but what has been given to man for his profit, the truth as to what he has to say to us. Its object is to communicate to man all that regards his own relationship with God.”[iii]

​

Our relationship with God is all that matters and the Bible gives us all the information we need in order to have that correct, everlasting relationship with God. Questions such as “What was God doing before Creation?” and “When did Satan fall in relation to Creation?” should be irrelevant to us because they are irrelevant to our relationship with God.

[FONT=&quot][ii][/FONT] © Copyright 2000-2011 BasicTheology.com. All rights reserved.

[FONT=&quot][iii][/FONT] Synopsis of the Old and New Testaments by John Nelson Darby (1800 - 1882)

Except that the Torah was not written by Moses, but many authors over several centuries. In fact, there's an estimated three hundred year gap between G1 & 2.

 

[pgp_protector]

Who else thinks this is going to be heavily "QV'd"?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Our relationship with God is all that matters and the Bible gives us all the information we need in order to have that correct, everlasting relationship with God. Questions such as “What was God doing before Creation?” and “When did Satan fall in relation to Creation?” should be irrelevant to us because they are irrelevant to our relationship with God.

I believe that pre-history (prior to the renewal described in GenOne) is very important, in fact crucial, in order to understand the great 'why' of everything. The very poetic way that Genesis One is written indicates a much greater meaning than is generally realized. The pre-historical information that is clearly revealed in scripture reveal the reason for most everything God has done and will do. These are the 'deep things' of God.

 

[jpcedotal]

Except that the Torah was not written by Moses, but many authors over several centuries. In fact, there's an estimated three hundred year gap between G1 & 2.

nope...that is a new age view...and the main focus of this view is to destroy the literal meaning of the Bible.

 

[dad]

Hmm. When I have heard preachers refer to some time before Genesis, I always had the feeling they had retreated into a corner. The so called bible support for such a position is weak I would think.

Ever heard about the plan of Salvation? How eternal life was promised before the world began? And How the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, etc? Here is a question for those that imagine a long mysterious history for earth before creation week --Why was Jesus our Messiah and savior from the very beginning planning for our salvation if we are just some after the fact Johnny come lately thing?

 

[dad]

Yes, and that's a whole matter in itself.

By 'maturity', I mean the 'ability to function as anyone else that age.'

Take an apple tree for instance; although it came on the scene in a moment of time, it came on the scene with ripe apples, ready to be picked and eaten.

Ah, OK. I lean toward God actually planting seeds that grew real fast... in the garden. Not all trees being made full grown. Of course Adam was a man, and formed that way, so yes, some things must have appeared old to a casual uninformed observer, such as so called science would be.

By the same token, Adam came on the scene ready for marriage, a job, and adult responsibilities.

I don't think the current laws of nature, which were in operation that that time, had an impact on creation.

Good point. But I do feel that a fast growing garden might be almost an exception.

I mean, Adam & Eve could have functioned as immature adults under those laws as well; but they didn't, since they had maturity embedded in them.

I guess we could say birds have it embedded in them to fly south Yes, man had all we needed to be..well, man. I think we also (hopefully) learned stuff since then, and from our wrong choice back then...all needed to make us what we were meant ti be.

But remember, there was no 'past' as we know it during the creation process, except for the days that went by while the week was going on.

Right. I agree. Apparently others posting here think that there was some vanished, mysterious lost long ages of life on earth before that. I do not agree with them.

For example, the earth came into existence rotating, so on day three, it had a 'past' of two complete rotations.

I used to assume that too. But when we think about it I guess we don't actually know that, do we? Of course we know it does now. But I chalk that up to 'unknown' In fact I am open to consider that the different nature was possibly when the rotation and etc started. That could be a trigger for rapid continental separation. But as I say, I don't know.

No need for fossils or anything.

OK. I had thought that the fossils in the pre cambrian and Cambrian areas were claimed to be proof of old ages and life before man, by science. I had wondered if those that leaned toward embedded age also thought that God sort of stuck the fossils in there, and they never actually existed or some such..?

Warp drive comes on the scene in our living rooms fully functional, teleportation is fully functional, that replicator that makes coffee and chicken sandwiches is fully functional, etc.

I agree that the garden and creatures and the world was fully functional by the end of that week. However, I also notice that God seems to have needed a garden area, hinting that the rest of the planet may not have been fully ready for all of us creatures at that time. Not that it matters.....

 

[AV1611VET]

However, I also notice that God seems to have needed a garden area, hinting that the rest of the planet may not have been fully ready for all of us creatures at that time.

Actually, dad, I totally agree with you on this.

I believe God created the earth, but left a portion of it untouched; then later planted a garden and hypergrew it in a moment's time.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Here is one of my previous posts on the subject:

No -- not creatio ex nihilo, but creatio ex materia.

God created the earth ex nihilo, but notice now:

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Verse 11 is describing creatio ex materia.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Verse 20 is describing creatio ex materia.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Verse 24 is describing creatio ex materia.

After creating Adam (also ex materia), God then planted and hypergrew a garden and placed Adam in it.

(We like to say that God built the chapel Adam was going to get married in.)

Then God created Eve from Adam's rib (creatio ex materia), brought her to Adam and they got married.

God then ceased creating; and the rest is history.

Note: there are various times when God intervened and performed acts of creatio ex materia, such as when He fed the widow of Zarephath and the 5000 with a lad's fish dinner and, IMO, the animals aboard the Ark; but these were not done in conjunction with the creation of the universe.

So you and I are not in disagreement on this --

 

[CabVet]

Well, since all the cool kids are hanging out in this thread, I have a few simple questions. Why would God, fully knowing what would happen, put a tree in the garden that Adam and Even weren't supposed to eat from? And why the serpent? It's like putting your 3 year old kids in a room full of exposed electrical wires, telling them "don't touch the wires", and then leaving the room.

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die" Genesis 2:17.

Neither Adam nor Eve died when they ate the fruit, why did God lie?

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Why did God create the serpent fully knowing what it would do?

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Why did this "perfect creation" sinned the first chance they had? This was the only wrong thing they could do at the garden, and they did it almost immediately after creation.

9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

Why does God act like he didn't know what Adam and Eve had done? Didn't he know that all along?