Exactly!Okay. Wow. I just read that part in Revelation 12 again. I am starting to see it now. Michael is the angel of the Jews. It is talking about their keeping the commandments of God, etc. Cool.
If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.If you were to do a BlueLetterBible search on the keyword "thief" (See this link here), you will notice that this in reference to the time known as the "Day of the Lord." The "Day of the Lord" is a period of time that starts at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet Judgment (Although it is heralded as having arrived by the wicked at the 6th seal). The time period known as the "Day of the Lord" includes the 2nd Coming of Christ, and it officially ends with the purification of this world by fire (as mentioned by Peter).
The age or time period known "Day of the Lord" is contained within the 7 year Tribulation period.
So in order to truly "not know the day or the hour" is not to know when the 7 year Tribulation will begin that contains the "Day of the Lord" time frame or period. This is why we are to watch for Christ's appearing at any moment. For Scripture says he will come in a time we think not.
I created a table in my recent commentary post here (if you are interested).
Blessings to you in the Lord.
If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.
With this day/hour in mind, let's turn our attention to the Church of Philadelphia. If any Church is to be "raptured," it is the Philadelphian Church as Jesus promised that He would save them from the HOUR of trial which is to come upon the whole earth. Logic dictates that if we can determine when that hour occurs, then we can determine when the saints will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. A survey of Revelation reveals how/what this hour refers to:
Revelation 17:12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Revelation 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
Based on the above, it appears that the hour Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that He would save them from is the hour that the kings of the earth receive their power and at that time Babylon is judged unto doom and destruction. I think this time frame fits perfectly with Rev 16:15-16. Thus the church is raptured at the 2nd Coming which takes place right before the hour of mystery Babylon's destruction.
No, it is speaking of the REMNANT Church as keeping the Commandments of God. Satan CAN GET AT THEM, he can't get at the Woman !! Thus the REMNANT can't be the Jews, it doesn't fit. He CAN'T get at the Woman {1/3 who repent} and the 2/3 who don't REPENT Perish, so they DO NOT keep the Commandments of God. So the Remnant can't be the Jews.Okay. Wow. I just read that part in Revelation 12 again. I am starting to see it now. Michael is the angel of the Jews. It is talking about their keeping the commandments of God, etc. Cool.
Explain to me how the Remnant can be Jews Douggg, it's just the opposite, they can't be Jews.Exactly!
In general, the sealsWell said. I just need more info. that the "man of sin" is a Jew.
I do want to thank you, though. I see now that the "beast" (the 8th king) more than likely cannot exist until after the abomination of desolation. For Paul says that the man of sin will say that he is god in the temple. However, the economic collapse of the nation of Babylon seems to fit the famine with the third seal.
So this is why I thought the beast (the 8th king) could exist at this point.
Do you have anything else in the Bible that lines up with the third seal?
In general, the seals
First half of the 7 years
first seal - the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, given a crown, anointed the king of Israel by the false prophet. The Antichrist as the king of Israel, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, of all future leaders of Israel, for the 7 year cycle - to begin the 7 years.
Second half of the 7 years
second seal - war breaks out. Because the Antichrist has gone into the temple, sat, and claims to halve achieve God-hood. God in reaction brings outsiders to Israel, to kill him. This is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.
In those verses is how the person gets mortally wounded killed. So war breaks out when he claims to he God (the first time around. Later when he becomes the beast, his coming back to life will seem to the world to verify his first claim).
third seal - starvation on planet earth because of the judgments from God. The poisoning of the waters. The burning up of the green grass, and a third of the trees.
fourth seal - death and hell. Large portions of earth's populations are dying off because of the plagues and judgments.
fifth seal - the souls of them martyred during the great tribulation have built up to being the great multitude in Revelation 7.
sixth seal - the second heaven rolls back like a scroll (one reason Satan and his angels have to be cast down to earth, because their home is going to be removed) near the very end of the 7 years.
The day of the Lord's wrath has come, on behalf of them who have been martyred. The beast, the false prophet, Satan - and the kings of the earth take drastic action and prepare to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgment on them.
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Jason, if you look at my chart, the "prince who shall come" and the "revealed man of sin" are on sloped arrows. I call those roles as "transitional roles". They are not long in duration.
They serve to transition to first become the Antichrist. Then to transition to becoming the beast.
The revelaed man of sin - takes place when the person first goes into the temple, claims to be God. It triggers the Day of the Lord. And it gets him killed, in Ezekiel 28:1-10.
2thessalonians2:4 is an act - the transition of desolation (from Daniel 8:12-13). Differently, the abomination of desolation is an object, the image made of him after he comes back to life as the beast.
The abomination of desolation is what triggers the great tribulation. My chart is not a complete chronology, but it can help you to get to the point where the great tribulation begins.
Jason, while my first chart is not a complete chronology, and stops at where the great tribulation begins -Interesting take on things.
Jason, a quick review...Interesting take on things.
Basically I agree with the overall concept you have of the Day of the Lord (hopefully, I did not misunderstand you).If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.
With this day/hour in mind, let's turn our attention to the Church of Philadelphia. If any Church is to be "raptured," it is the Philadelphian Church as Jesus promised that He would save them from the HOUR of trial which is to come upon the whole earth. Logic dictates that if we can determine when that hour occurs, then we can determine when the saints will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. A survey of Revelation reveals how/what this hour refers to:
Revelation 17:12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Revelation 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
Based on the above, it appears that the hour Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that He would save them from is the hour that the kings of the earth receive their power and at that time Babylon is judged unto doom and destruction. I think this time frame fits perfectly with Rev 16:15-16. Thus the church is raptured at the 2nd Coming which takes place right before the hour of mystery Babylon's destruction.
Yes, the Scripture in my Chronology confirms this.
The Bible says the wicked will be destroyed.
In my End Times Chronology, I list the verses that talk about the destruction of the devil.
You can check out my part of the chronology that talks about the destruction of the wicked and the destruction of the devil here.
I hope this helps;
May God richly bless you in His good ways today.
Jason, a quick review...
1. Ezekiel 38-39 sets the overall outline of the end times, the chronology. The link I gave you to my other thread on Optional and fixed of the end times chronology. Post 81
2. The parameters of the crowns/no crowns. Explanation of, Post 60.
3. The six seals, first half, second half. Post 91
4. My first chart, the path of the arch villain of the end times, the different roles he progresses through. In multiple posts.
5. My second chart beginning the great tribulation period, all of the time frames in Revelation and Daniel laid out, the 1335 days, the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 3 1/2 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half time. Post 94
Agreed, though we disagree I respect your opinion. Thanks for engaging.I don't agree, my friend;
I think it is best we respectfully agree to disagree.
Besides, this is a Pre-Trib Only and or Mid Trib Only thread.
So I think it is best to let it go.
Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord (even if we disagree).
Right, the Gentile Remnant Church ON EARTH, vs the larger portion that is in Heaven.I see the woman as giving birth to Jesus. This woman is Israel. The woman is also described as having been clothed with the sun, moon, and stars (Note: Joseph had a dream of a sun, moon, and eleven stars).
The rest of the offspring that the devil went to war with at the end of Revelation 12 are general believers (Gentile believers).
YW, it's all good, I just so happened to have done research on Matt. 24 and a Exegesis on Matt. 24 ad the THREE QUESTIONS that the Disciples asked.@Revealing Times:
I want to thank you for challenging me (i.e. for your help), too.
I was looking at my Chronology again and the "Beginning of Sorrows" and then re-reading the words of Jesus and the words of his disciples. The disciples specifically were asking,
"...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(Matthew 24:3).
The last two questions by the disciples I find very interesting.
May God bless you this fine day.
Jason, on my chart, I show the little horn as the 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline. The person will also be a Jew.Thank you Doug. I will have to prayerfully look over everything and compare Scripture with Scripture with what I got. I may insert cool graphics for illustrative purposes to help the reader see the clarity in my chronology. Yes, it needs work. I am always looking to improve.
Thank you for your help, Doug. I appreciate it. We may not agree on every little thing, but I do want to thank you for helping me with certain things that I could not see before.
*Gives you a hug in the Lord*
Blessings to you and your family in Christ.
Jason, on my chart, I show the little horn as the 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline. The person will also be a Jew.
When he comes to power, being a Jew will be one way to confirm that it is him.
And he will have a determined facial appearance about him (from Daniel 7:20 and 8:23)
Hi Jason,What is a mystery is that Scripture says that the "little horn" shall make war against the saints and that he prevailed against them. This would be the man of sin or the 7th king.
• Daniel 7:21
"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"• Daniel 8:9-10
"And...a little horn...waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."
Yet, we know in Revelation 13 it says that the beast is given to make war with the saints.
• Revelation 13:7a
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"
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