Futurist Only My New End Times Chronology

[Jamdoc]

One could believe this, but only if they lack understanding of the timing and chronology of Revelation. John makes it clear, the raptured saints seen in heaven in chapter 7, before any part of the 70th week, and before any part of God's wrath.

the 70th week starts before that, the 5th seal is actually around the midpoint of the 70th week, it is paralleled in chapter 13.
You unfortunately see 2 groups of 144,000, and see the world being handed over to the Antichrist AFTER the 7th trumpet and the angel proclaiming that the kingdoms of the earth were now the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.
You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Jamdoc]

So what do we see in Matt 24 which is the same coming as the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We can confirm that Jesus remains in the clouds in Rev 14
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

You are confusing the event of Jesus remaining in the clouds and sending His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth with the event when the Lord Himself comes.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These are obviously two different events as in one event the Lord remains in the clouds and sends His angels and in another event the Lord Himself comes.

It will be a "secret rapture" of the Church as we can clearly see in scripture.



As I have shown above Jesus does not come to the earth at the 6th seal (Rev 14) so He obviously comes to the earth at a different time. That time will be when the groom comes for the bride.


Oh no. The Lord Himself will come for His Church. The dead in Christ is the barley harvest, the alive Church is the wheat harvest. Then we have the fall fruit harvest which is the 6th seal, Rev 14 harvest.

The harvest is at the same time, otherwise you'd have people who died after the resurrection but before the rapture.

and I've always taken the rapture to be when the Lord is in the clouds, not when He sets foot on the mount of olives. All 3 main places I see the rapture, the Olivet Discourse, Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Jesus is in the clouds, which I interpret 1 Thessalonians 4 to also be, Jesus in the clouds.
I think you're injecting a pre trib rapture out of fear even though you can see in scripture how things line up.
Don't fear what men can do to you, fear God, and fear what God will do to the men who may harm you in tribulation. His vengeance will be so severe that those who might persecute you will wish they'd never been born.

 

[iamlamad]

Pre trib Church rapture, prewrath 12 tribes across the earth rapture............Just like the word says.

As I said, pretty much myth.

Here is what scripture tells us:
Pretrib rapture: as Paul tells us, just before the start of Wrath.
144,000 rapture (only a guess because they are seen in heaven in chapter 14)
OT rapture/resurrection "on the last day." (at the 7th vial.)

 

[iamlamad]

the 70th week starts before that, the 5th seal is actually around the midpoint of the 70th week, it is paralleled in chapter 13.
You unfortunately see 2 groups of 144,000, and see the world being handed over to the Antichrist AFTER the 7th trumpet and the angel proclaiming that the kingdoms of the earth were now the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.
You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is myth or human imagination.
The truth is, God MARKED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Plain and simple.

Sorry, first 6 trumpets in the first half of the week, with the 7th marking the midpoint.

Sorry, the only parallels is the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end, two given as days, two and months and one as times. These countdowns run parallel through chapters 14, 15, and 16.

The seals cannot be moved anywhere: their purpose is to seal the book. It is the book that is important. Once all seals are open, the first thing in the book is 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Believe Revelation just as written; it is impossible to improve on God's timing and chronology.

No, the 144,000 are seen TWICE - the same group. First they are sealed, but the next view they are in heaven.

The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. This event will divide the week and will be marked by the 7th trumpet. That same trumpet will be Michael's signal to go to war with Satan and cast him down. He will immediately possess the man of sin who will turn into the Beast of chapter 13. Jesus said the days of GT come in the second half of the week, which will follow quickly after John saw the Beast rising.

God is limited in what he can do while Satan is still the god of this world. But after the 7th trumpet, the world is given back to Jesus and then He takes His great power and reigns over earth. But the first think he will do is DELEGATE 42 months of authority to the Beast. He has that right, since the kingdoms are now HIS.

My friend, this is the word of God rightly divided: it comes right out of the pages of Revelation unchanged. Too many people feel the need to rearrange things as if God did not know the proper order.

Maybe one reason people get this urge to rearrange is that they just cannot fathom God delegating 42 months of authority to Satan and the Beast, not understanding it is in the purpose of God to do this.

Do you understand God's purpose in the last half of the week? Daniel 12 tells us: God is going to "completely shatter" the power of His people, the Jews. Today, for the most part, they trust in their IDF. God at the end of the week, the nations of the world will send troops to Israel, to wipe them off the map. Israel's IDF might last one to two days. Then the only possible thing that will save Israel is their long awaited Messiah. He will show up just in the nick of time. God will wait until, as a last resort, they call on Him.

 

[iamlamad]

The harvest is at the same time, otherwise you'd have people who died after the resurrection but before the rapture.

and I've always taken the rapture to be when the Lord is in the clouds, not when He sets foot on the mount of olives. All 3 main places I see the rapture, the Olivet Discourse, Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Jesus is in the clouds, which I interpret 1 Thessalonians 4 to also be, Jesus in the clouds.
I think you're injecting a pre trib rapture out of fear even though you can see in scripture how things line up.
Don't fear what men can do to you, fear God, and fear what God will do to the men who may harm you in tribulation. His vengeance will be so severe that those who might persecute you will wish they'd never been born.

I've always taken the rapture to be when the Lord is in the clouds, not when He sets foot on the mount of olives. BRILLIANT! Good job!

Don't get sidetracked by the gathering in Matthew 24: it is NOT Paul's rapture, for it comes 7 years after and it gathers from heaven, not earth. Paul's rapture gathers ONLY from earth. We can easily tell the harvest in chapter 14 is symbolic of what will soon take place during the days of GT and then at Armageddon. God is NOT going to harvest people with a sickle: that is a symbol, showing is this entire harvest is symbolic of the days ahead.

WHERE is Paul's rapture found in Revelation? You nailed it - almost! It will be a moment before the start of Wrath at the 6th seal. Without much doubt, that worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal will be Paul's sudden destruction at the rapture. It seems the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord.

 

[iamlamad]

Pre trib Church rapture, prewrath 12 tribes across the earth rapture............Just like the word says.

Scripture and verse for this 12 trib rapture?

 

[Jamdoc]

This is myth or human imagination.
The truth is, God MARKED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Plain and simple.

Sorry, first 6 trumpets in the first half of the week, with the 7th marking the midpoint.

Sorry, the only parallels is the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end, two given as days, two and months and one as times. These countdowns run parallel through chapters 14, 15, and 16.

The seals cannot be moved anywhere: their purpose is to seal the book. It is the book that is important. Once all seals are open, the first thing in the book is 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Believe Revelation just as written; it is impossible to improve on God's timing and chronology.

No, the 144,000 are seen TWICE - the same group. First they are sealed, but the next view they are in heaven.

The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. This event will divide the week and will be marked by the 7th trumpet. That same trumpet will be Michael's signal to go to war with Satan and cast him down. He will immediately possess the man of sin who will turn into the Beast of chapter 13. Jesus said the days of GT come in the second half of the week, which will follow quickly after John saw the Beast rising.

God is limited in what he can do while Satan is still the god of this world. But after the 7th trumpet, the world is given back to Jesus and then He takes His great power and reigns over earth. But the first think he will do is DELEGATE 42 months of authority to the Beast. He has that right, since the kingdoms are now HIS.

My friend, this is the word of God rightly divided: it comes right out of the pages of Revelation unchanged. Too many people feel the need to rearrange things as if God did not know the proper order.

Maybe one reason people get this urge to rearrange is that they just cannot fathom God delegating 42 months of authority to Satan and the Beast, not understanding it is in the purpose of God to do this.

Do you understand God's purpose in the last half of the week? Daniel 12 tells us: God is going to "completely shatter" the power of His people, the Jews. Today, for the most part, they trust in their IDF. God at the end of the week, the nations of the world will send troops to Israel, to wipe them off the map. Israel's IDF might last one to two days. Then the only possible thing that will save Israel is their long awaited Messiah. He will show up just in the nick of time. God will wait until, as a last resort, they call on Him.

Dude
seriously?
You think after the angel proclaims that the world now is ruled by Christ and He will rule for ever and ever that the next thing to happen is turning over power to the antichrist for 42 months?
You're off your rocker. Revelation is not written in pure chronological order.
Jesus also comes in the clouds twice in your view, has 2 wraths of God, 2 earthquakes that destroy Jerusalem, the water is turned to blood twice,

 

[Jamdoc]

I've always taken the rapture to be when the Lord is in the clouds, not when He sets foot on the mount of olives. BRILLIANT! Good job!

Don't get sidetracked by the gathering in Matthew 24: it is NOT Paul's rapture, for it comes 7 years after and it gathers from heaven, not earth. Paul's rapture gathers ONLY from earth. We can easily tell the harvest in chapter 14 is symbolic of what will soon take place during the days of GT and then at Armageddon. God is NOT going to harvest people with a sickle: that is a symbol, showing is this entire harvest is symbolic of the days ahead.

WHERE is Paul's rapture found in Revelation? You nailed it - almost! It will be a moment before the start of Wrath at the 6th seal. Without much doubt, that worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal will be Paul's sudden destruction at the rapture. It seems the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord.

You're almost right except you don't see that it also happens in Revelation 14. Yes the sickle is symbolic but it is the harvest of the world, those in Christ (the first reaping done by Christ) gathered to Christ, not put through the wrath, the second reaping, done by an angel, are put through the wrath of God, which in this vision is given by the 7 vials.
The one thing you are missing is that there's a break in Chronology between Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.
Revelation 10:7 explains this

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11 is describing the end of the wrath of God and basically fast forwarding to the end of Revelation 20, where the final judgement takes place. Revelation 12-20 gives more detail on the things that happen at the end of God's wrath.
But they are 2 different views of the same events. They parallel too much otherwise, and the finality in Revelation 11 is basically saying "this is the end of the story"
But God gives us another view of it with different details.

 

[iamlamad]

You're almost right except you don't see that it also happens in Revelation 14. Yes the sickle is symbolic but it is the harvest of the world, those in Christ (the first reaping done by Christ) gathered to Christ, not put through the wrath, the second reaping, done by an angel, are put through the wrath of God, which in this vision is given by the 7 vials.
The one thing you are missing is that there's a break in Chronology between Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.
Revelation 10:7 explains this

Revelation 11 is describing the end of the wrath of God and basically fast forwarding to the end of Revelation 20, where the final judgement takes place. Revelation 12-20 gives more detail on the things that happen at the end of God's wrath.
But they are 2 different views of the same events. They parallel too much otherwise, and the finality in Revelation 11 is basically saying "this is the end of the story"
But God gives us another view of it with different details.

(the first reaping done by Christ) gathered to Christ, not put through the wrath
You are right that the church will be caught up before wrath, but my friend, you have totally missed the start of wrath: that is at the 6th seal with the DAY of His wrath. The rapture will come just before the 7th seal, so any harvest seen later is certainly NOT the church,

Then, it is the TIMING of the harvest in chapter 14. It is just before the start of the days of great tribulation. The harvest of the righteous as shown first, will be those who refuse the mark and lose their head. But the sickle harvest of the wicked does not happen until Armageddon and that is in chapter 19, about 3.5 years LATER. You really must watch the TIMING in Revelation. Flip a page, and time has passed.

The days of GT have not started at this sickle harvest, but is about to start. Actually, the sickle harvests are not only symbolic but are prophet: looking ahead first to the days of GT and then to the battle of Armageddon. Did you notice that the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15?

Without a doubt, there will be an ongoing harvest of the righteous by beheading and the wicked during the vials and associated plagues. But millions of the wicked will be killed at Armageddon.

OF COURSE these righteous are or will be put through wrath. Both Satan's wrath through beheading them, and God's wrath when they want a drink.

the second reaping, done by an angel, are put through the wrath of God, which in this vision is given by the 7 vials. I agree with this. But the vials are LATER in time after chapter 14. That is why this harvest is prophetic.

he one thing you are missing is that there's a break in Chronology between Revelation 11 and Revelation 12. No there isn't! That is another myth. Did you not notice what Jesus said, that when those in judea see the abomination they are to flee?

The man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that point in time. It is the division of the week into two halves. This happens with the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. Then in 12:6 we see the fleeing begin. Therefore 12:6 is only a second or two after the abomination in chapter 11. Therefore there is NO TIME between chapter 11 and chapter 12.

However, one must recognize that 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis with no bearing whatsoever on time or timing or chronology. John's chronology will go from the 7th trumpet to the fleeing, with only seconds between.

Chapter 10 only tells us what WILL happen when the 7th trumpet sounds. It will be a property closing: property will change ownership: the kingdoms of the world will be taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

Revelation 11 is describing the end of the wrath of God and basically fast forwarding to the end of Revelation 20, where the final judgement takes place.
Sorry, just MORE MYTH. You have a glimmer of truth. Revelation 11 begins (verse 1 & 2) just days before the exact midpoint as the man of sin moves to Jerusalem and brings a Gentile army with him. He MUST move to Jerusalem, because in 3.5 days, he will enter the temple in Jerusalem.

Next, John sees the arrival of the two witnesses: they show up because the man of sin just showed up, and God knows what he has planned. *** They will testify for the next 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that will end the week. They will be killed and lay dead for those 3.5 days. Then they will be resurrected with all the rest of the OT saints and those beheaded.

***In Rev 11:15 the 7th trumpet will sound as the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(Rev. 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis taking the two witnesses down the last half of the week as a side journey.)

There is worship in heaven to finish out chapter 11, then chronology jumps to 12:6 and the fleeing. Next is the war in heaven. Satan is cast down, possesses the man of sin who will turn Beast. John then sees the beast rising.

Revelation 12-20 gives more detail on the things that happen at the end of God's wrath. Sorry, but this is just more myth. Rev 12 takes place, THEN Rev. 13 up to verse 5 or 6: the Beast given 42 month. The rest of chapter 13 is a parenthesis showing what the two Beasts will do during the last half of the week.
Next, chapter 14 is God warning people NOT to take the mark, and to worship God.
Finally, in chapter 15 the days of GT have started and the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Then, preparation for the vials.
Chapter 16 is the vials, FILLED with God's wrath. His wrath started with the DAY of His wrath in the trumpets, but by the time of the vials, His anger has peaked. He is VERY angry as seen by the vials. chapter 16 then ENDs the 70th week. Jesus remains in heaven for the marriage and supper.

But they are 2 different views of the same events. No, every chapter is new events and later times.

the finality in Revelation 11 is basically saying "this is the end of the story" This is just more myth: the timing of chapter 11 is MIDPOINT. (That may well be why John wrote it in chapter 11, not chapter 19 or 20.) There is nothing "final" in chapter 11 except the finality of Satan losing his position as god of the planet forever and ever, and Jesus taking back His great power and reigning over earth from this point on and forever.

 

[Jamdoc]

(the first reaping done by Christ) gathered to Christ, not put through the wrath
You are right that the church will be caught up before wrath, but my friend, you have totally missed the start of wrath: that is at the 6th seal with the DAY of His wrath. The rapture will come just before the 7th seal, so any harvest seen later is certainly NOT the church,

Then, it is the TIMING of the harvest in chapter 14. It is just before the start of the days of great tribulation. The harvest of the righteous as shown first, will be those who refuse the mark and lose their head. But the sickle harvest of the wicked does not happen until Armageddon and that is in chapter 19, about 3.5 years LATER. You really must watch the TIMING in Revelation. Flip a page, and time has passed.

The days of GT have not started at this sickle harvest, but is about to start. Actually, the sickle harvests are not only symbolic but are prophet: looking ahead first to the days of GT and then to the battle of Armageddon. Did you notice that the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15?

Without a doubt, there will be an ongoing harvest of the righteous by beheading and the wicked during the vials and associated plagues. But millions of the wicked will be killed at Armageddon.

OF COURSE these righteous are or will be put through wrath. Both Satan's wrath through beheading them, and God's wrath when they want a drink.

the second reaping, done by an angel, are put through the wrath of God, which in this vision is given by the 7 vials. I agree with this. But the vials are LATER in time after chapter 14. That is why this harvest is prophetic.

he one thing you are missing is that there's a break in Chronology between Revelation 11 and Revelation 12. No there isn't! That is another myth. Did you not notice what Jesus said, that when those in judea see the abomination they are to flee?

The man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that point in time. It is the division of the week into two halves. This happens with the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. Then in 12:6 we see the fleeing begin. Therefore 12:6 is only a second or two after the abomination in chapter 11. Therefore there is NO TIME between chapter 11 and chapter 12.

However, one must recognize that 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis with no bearing whatsoever on time or timing or chronology. John's chronology will go from the 7th trumpet to the fleeing, with only seconds between.

Chapter 10 only tells us what WILL happen when the 7th trumpet sounds. It will be a property closing: property will change ownership: the kingdoms of the world will be taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

Revelation 11 is describing the end of the wrath of God and basically fast forwarding to the end of Revelation 20, where the final judgement takes place.
Sorry, just MORE MYTH. You have a glimmer of truth. Revelation 11 begins (verse 1 & 2) just days before the exact midpoint as the man of sin moves to Jerusalem and brings a Gentile army with him. He MUST move to Jerusalem, because in 3.5 days, he will enter the temple in Jerusalem.

Next, John sees the arrival of the two witnesses: they show up because the man of sin just showed up, and God knows what he has planned. *** They will testify for the next 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that will end the week. They will be killed and lay dead for those 3.5 days. Then they will be resurrected with all the rest of the OT saints and those beheaded.

***In Rev 11:15 the 7th trumpet will sound as the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(Rev. 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis taking the two witnesses down the last half of the week as a side journey.)

There is worship in heaven to finish out chapter 11, then chronology jumps to 12:6 and the fleeing. Next is the war in heaven. Satan is cast down, possesses the man of sin who will turn Beast. John then sees the beast rising.

Revelation 12-20 gives more detail on the things that happen at the end of God's wrath. Sorry, but this is just more myth. Rev 12 takes place, THEN Rev. 13 up to verse 5 or 6: the Beast given 42 month. The rest of chapter 13 is a parenthesis showing what the two Beasts will do during the last half of the week.
Next, chapter 14 is God warning people NOT to take the mark, and to worship God.
Finally, in chapter 15 the days of GT have started and the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Then, preparation for the vials.
Chapter 16 is the vials, FILLED with God's wrath. His wrath started with the DAY of His wrath in the trumpets, but by the time of the vials, His anger has peaked. He is VERY angry as seen by the vials. chapter 16 then ENDs the 70th week. Jesus remains in heaven for the marriage and supper.

But they are 2 different views of the same events. No, every chapter is new events and later times.

the finality in Revelation 11 is basically saying "this is the end of the story" This is just more myth: the timing of chapter 11 is MIDPOINT. (That may well be why John wrote it in chapter 11, not chapter 19 or 20.) There is nothing "final" in chapter 11 except the finality of Satan losing his position as god of the planet forever and ever, and Jesus taking back His great power and reigning over earth from this point on and forever.

I don't miss it at all.
I see Revelation 6 after the 6th seal as the coming of Christ, the rapture, and beginning of the wrath of God on the same day.
I see Revelation 14's back half to also be the coming of Christ, the rapture, and beginning of the wrath of God on the same day.

You're just seeing it as happning twice somehow instead of seeing them as the same event, because you do not rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[iamlamad]

Dude
seriously?
You think after the angel proclaims that the world now is ruled by Christ and He will rule for ever and ever that the next thing to happen is turning over power to the antichrist for 42 months?
You're off your rocker. Revelation is not written in pure chronological order.
Jesus also comes in the clouds twice in your view, has 2 wraths of God, 2 earthquakes that destroy Jerusalem, the water is turned to blood twice,

I didn't write it, John did! I think you can read chapter 13 as well as I can. God DELEGATES 42 months to the Beast. It is written so we should believe it.
Revelation IS written in order, but with some parenthesis and prophecy.

Mark it down, take it to the bank: the 7th trumpet marks the exact moment that the man of sin will enter the temple and "abominate." And at that time, a property closing will take place in the throne room of heaven: Adam's 6000 year lease will expire, and sudden Satan will be left with NO LEGAL HOLD to earth. The world will be taken from him and given to Jesus Christ.

But just hold on a second: the 42 months of authority given to Satan has been promised him since John wrote Revelation! God is not going to go back on His word!

Just to keep the record straight:
WHO lost the kingdoms of the world, and who gained them?
Who delegated the 42 months and who were they for?
Who captures who in Rev. 19 and who casts who into the lake of fire?
Who is bound for a thousand years?

Make no mistake, God is going to follow what He has promised to do.

Jesus also comes in the clouds twice in your view, has 2 wraths of God, 2 earthquakes that destroy Jerusalem, the water is turned to blood twice No, this is myth. It is good to study revelation, but it is better to understand it.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't miss it at all.
I see Revelation 6 after the 6th seal as the coming of Christ, the rapture, and beginning of the wrath of God on the same day.
I see Revelation 14's back half to also be the coming of Christ, the rapture, and beginning of the wrath of God on the same day.

You're just seeing it as happning twice somehow instead of seeing them as the same event, because you do not rightly divide the word of truth.

Well, you are close, but since Wrath beings AT the 6th seal, then the rapture must come before that. However, some say wrath really begins at the 7th seal, and the rapture just before that - so we are very close. Not only the same day, but the same hour and probably the same minute.

I am going to stick with the written word, instead of what you see. There is no coming in chapter 14. Unless the symbolic Jesus on a cloud is a coming. It isn't. His third coming will be in Rev. 19, CLEARLY shown.

You're just seeing it as happning twice What are you saying? WHAT am I seeing twice? I promise you, I don't have double vision!

 

[Jamdoc]

I didn't write it, John did! I think you can read chapter 13 as well as I can. God DELEGATES 42 months to the Beast. It is written so we should believe it.
Revelation IS written in order, but with some parenthesis and prophecy.

Mark it down, take it to the bank: the 7th trumpet marks the exact moment that the man of sin will enter the temple and "abominate." And at that time, a property closing will take place in the throne room of heaven: Adam's 6000 year lease will expire, and sudden Satan will be left with NO LEGAL HOLD to earth. The world will be taken from him and given to Jesus Christ.

But just hold on a second: the 42 months of authority given to Satan has been promised him since John wrote Revelation! God is not going to go back on His word!

Just to keep the record straight:
WHO lost the kingdoms of the world, and who gained them?
Who delegated the 42 months and who were they for?
Who captures who in Rev. 19 and who casts who into the lake of fire?
Who is bound for a thousand years?

Make no mistake, God is going to follow what He has promised to do.

Jesus also comes in the clouds twice in your view, has 2 wraths of God, 2 earthquakes that destroy Jerusalem, the water is turned to blood twice No, this is myth. It is good to study revelation, but it is better to understand it.

No in my view they are the same event told in 2 different ways with different details to show how they connect to different things that Jesus told John in His earthly ministry, the Revelation 14 is showing the wheat and tares parable, revelation 20 showing the sheep and goats parable.
You're reading it in Chronological order and as a result, have deja vu everywhere.

 

[iamlamad]

No in my view they are the same event told in 2 different ways with different details to show how they connect to different things that Jesus told John in His earthly ministry, the Revelation 14 is showing the wheat and tares parable, revelation 20 showing the sheep and goats parable.
You're reading it in Chronological order and as a result, have deja vu everywhere.

You only imagine I have deja vu! In reality I am fine. Sadly I must disagree. I don't see the judgment of the nations anywhere spelled out in Rev. 20. I don't think God showed that judgment to John so John did not write it. You are also mistaken about Rev. 14 and the tares. You see, the tares are harvested first and burned.

If you are saying that something in Revelation is shown two different ways, again I would have to disagree.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I've always taken the rapture to be when the Lord is in the clouds, not when He sets foot on the mount of olives. All 3 main places I see the rapture, the Olivet Discourse, Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Jesus is in the clouds, which I interpret 1 Thessalonians 4 to also be, Jesus in the clouds.

You are missing the part that the LORD HIMSELF comes for His Church...............He does not send His angels. In the coming of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal and Rev 14......... He sends His angels.

I think you're injecting a pre trib rapture out of fear even though you can see in scripture how things line up.
Don't fear what men can do to you, fear God, and fear what God will do to the men who may harm you in tribulation. His vengeance will be so severe that those who might persecute you will wish they'd never been born.

You are not correct in what you are thinking. I believe that there is a pretribulation rapture........ because the word says that there is a pretribualtion rapture. Yes you correctly see a rapture at the 6th seal, Matt 24 and Rev 14. What you are not seeing is who is being raptured. I showed you in Rev 15 that those that are raptured are singing the song of Moses. That's because they are of the 12 tribes.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Do you not understand 1st fruits? If I tell you that the first fruits of the harvest are pumpkins, you know the harvest is pumpkins. If I tell you that the first fruits of the harvest are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes you know that the harvest is the 12 tribes.

I can show many, many, many, many, many reasons why there are two raptures. If you knew nothing more than the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel, you ought to be able to see what harvest is at the 6th seal. The Church will be raptured pre trib and the 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured pre wrath................only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God and they do so in a place prepared for their protection.

I have not run across many people that understand how Revelation flows. You should be smart enough and hopefully in the spirit enough to understand that there will be a secret pretribulation rapture.

 

[Jamdoc]

You are missing the part that the LORD HIMSELF comes for His Church...............He does not send His angels. In the coming of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal and Rev 14......... He sends His angels.


You are not correct in what you are thinking. I believe that there is a pretribulation rapture........ because the word says that there is a pretribualtion rapture. Yes you correctly see a rapture at the 6th seal, Matt 24 and Rev 14. What you are not seeing is who is being raptured. I showed you in Rev 15 that those that are raptured are singing the song of Moses. That's because they are of the 12 tribes.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Do you not understand 1st fruits? If I tell you that the first fruits of the harvest are pumpkins, you know the harvest is pumpkins. If I tell you that the first fruits of the harvest are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes you know that the harvest is the 12 tribes.

I can show many, many, many, many, many reasons why there are two raptures. If you knew nothing more than the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel, you ought to be able to see what harvest is at the 6th seal. The Church will be raptured pre trib and the 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured pre wrath................only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God and they do so in a place prepared for their protection.

I have not run across many people that understand how Revelation flows. You should be smart enough and hopefully in the spirit enough to understand that there will be a secret pretribulation rapture.

Again a problem arises with seeing 2 separate raptures.
If there is a rapture before the resurrection, than Paul, led by the holy spirit, was lying that those who were alive would not precede the dead in Christ.
If the resurrection takes place at this first rapture, then your second rapture has no resurrection so those who came to Christ after the first rapture, are not resurrected until final judgement.
Because there's only 2 resurrections, not 3, and the second only happens just before final judgement.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Scripture and verse for this 12 trib rapture?

In Rev 14:1-4 the 144,000 are shown as first fruits. If we know that the 1st fruits of the harvest are pumpkins......... we know the harvest is pumpkins. If we know that the first fruits are 12,000 from each tribe........... we know that the harvest from the earth will be the 12 tribes across the earth.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Here is the harvest
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Again a problem arises with seeing 2 separate raptures.
If there is a rapture before the resurrection, than Paul, led by the holy spirit, was lying that those who were alive would not precede the dead in Christ.
If the resurrection takes place at this first rapture, then your second rapture has no resurrection so those who came to Christ after the first rapture, are not resurrected until final judgement.
Because there's only 2 resurrections, not 3, and the second only happens just before final judgement.

There is no problem with there being multiple raptures.
The 1st thing that will happen is the dead in Christ will rise. Likely to occur on Passover. Then the Church will be caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This will likely happen on Pentecost. This is the barley and wheat harvests.
Then in the fall fruit harvest there will be a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church will be gathered from heaven where they will be during the 70th week of Daniel and the alive of the 12 tribes across the earth will be gathered from the earth. Then many of the dead will also be raised.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The fig tree has two harvests. Look it up.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no problem with there being multiple raptures.
The 1st thing that will happen is the dead in Christ will rise. Likely to occur on Passover. Then the Church will be caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This will likely happen on Pentecost. This is the barley and wheat harvests.
Then in the fall fruit harvest there will be a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church will be gathered from heaven where they will be during the 70th week of Daniel and the alive of the 12 tribes across the earth will be gathered from the earth. Then many of the dead will also be raised.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The fig tree has two harvests. Look it up.

Sounds like you're getting most of your timing from extra biblical sources. Not to mention passover has already been fulfilled by Christ, so has the feast of unleavened bread, and first fruits, and pentecost.
The next unfulfilled feast is the Feast of Trumpets.
Which... the last trumpet is the call of awakening.
If it's ANYTHING to do with the feast days having prophetic fulfillments, it would be feast of Trumpets because the feast of Trumpets cannot be called until the new moon is sighted. Cloud cover can delay it being called no man knows the day or the hour.
I'm not 100% behind that interpretation but if anyone were to attempt to set a day, feast of trumpets I find more likely than any other. Not to mention with the sun and moon going dark, if it were to land somewhere on the date of Yom Teruah.. the feast couldn't be called, because there would be no sighting of the new moon. The last trumpet blast being the call of awakening and Paul giving "at the last trump" in 1 Corinthians....
I dunno. I see stronger support for that theory than most.
But the problems with your theory.
1. Paul presents the coming of the Lord, resurrection, rapture, and wrath of God beginning pretty much all happening in the same event. Which is consistent with the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 6 after the 6th seal. It's one event and while the resurrection and rapture are not explicitly described in this event, only the result of it in Revelation 7, the other signs Jesus gave are there, the darkening of the sun and moon, the Lord appearing in the clouds (seated on a throne according to the people on the earth who can see Him), the tribes of the earth mourning and declaring the start of the wrath of God. This is not presented as something that takes any manner of time but happening in one globally eclipsed night.
2. If you have people being resurrected 5 weeks before people are raptured, there is the chance that someone who would be raptured is killed in that 5 weeks, or dies of some illness or natural causes.
Now they have to miss out on the coming of the Lord for them. For those resurrected then what, they're walking around on earth and other people can see them? You'd have people who have been dead hundreds, thousands of years completely out of touch with the modern world wandering around, people'd be attempting to kill them, etc. This idea of a 5 week gap, makes no sense. It actually causes even more problems than your multiple rapture but only 2 resurrections theory to begin with.
3. You say many of the dead will be raised after this 2nd rapture, so you're injecting a 3rd resurrection when Revelation gives 2. That's some dangerous doctrine to get behind, as you shouldn't be adding to Revelation.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Sounds like you're getting most of your timing from extra biblical sources.

No, the barley and wheat harvest comes straight from the Bible and we know that the dead in Christ rise first. Everyone just assumes that they rise and immediately after that the alive are caught up. I don't believe that is so.

Not to mention passover has already been fulfilled by Christ, so has the feast of unleavened bread, and first fruits, and pentecost.

That's what they say. Passover and Pentecost are harvest feasts. I am unaware that any harvest has occurred and as such............they are unfulfilled.

The next unfulfilled feast is the Feast of Trumpets.
Which... the last trumpet is the call of awakening.
If it's ANYTHING to do with the feast days having prophetic fulfillments, it would be feast of Trumpets because the feast of Trumpets cannot be called until the new moon is sighted. Cloud cover can delay it being called no man knows the day or the hour.
I'm not 100% behind that interpretation but if anyone were to attempt to set a day, feast of trumpets I find more likely than any other. Not to mention with the sun and moon going dark, if it were to land somewhere on the date of Yom Teruah.. the feast couldn't be called, because there would be no sighting of the new moon. The last trumpet blast being the call of awakening and Paul giving "at the last trump" in 1 Corinthians....
I dunno. I see stronger support for that theory than most.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and it is the most likely time for the harvest of the twelve tribes. That day, the day of the Lord, will not take them unaware.

But the problems with your theory.
1. Paul presents the coming of the Lord, resurrection, rapture, and wrath of God beginning pretty much all happening in the same event. Which is consistent with the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 6 after the 6th seal. It's one event and while the resurrection and rapture are not explicitly described in this event, only the result of it in Revelation 7, the other signs Jesus gave are there, the darkening of the sun and moon, the Lord appearing in the clouds (seated on a throne according to the people on the earth who can see Him), the tribes of the earth mourning and declaring the start of the wrath of God. This is not presented as something that takes any manner of time but happening in one globally eclipsed night.

There will be a rapture, resurrection at the coming of the Lord just before the wrath of God. So there is no problem.

2. If you have people being resurrected 5 weeks before people are raptured, there is the chance that someone who would be raptured is killed in that 5 weeks, or dies of some illness or natural causes.
Now they have to miss out on the coming of the Lord for them. For those resurrected then what, they're walking around on earth and other people can see them? You'd have people who have been dead hundreds, thousands of years completely out of touch with the modern world wandering around, people'd be attempting to kill them, etc. This idea of a 5 week gap, makes no sense. It actually causes even more problems than your multiple rapture but only 2 resurrections theory to begin with.

God is God. He can do what He needs to solve what you perceive as a problem. The idea of a gap in time makes perfect sense as the dead in Christ rise first.

3. You say many of the dead will be raised after this 2nd rapture, so you're injecting a 3rd resurrection when Revelation gives 2. That's some dangerous doctrine to get behind, as you shouldn't be adding to Revelation.

I have added nothing. At the rapture prior to the day of the Lord, they rise together.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There will be two raptures. Jacob had two wives. He had to work 7 more years for the chosen bride. That's more than just a story.