Pre-Trib Only My New End Times Chronology

[Choose Wisely]

Where in Revelation do we find Jesus returning to the earth after the "wedding?" It can ONLY be his Rev. 19 coming to Armageddon, since He comes JUST after the marriage and supper.

Actually, if you understood the marriage supper, you would realize that it occurs when Jesus comes for His Church. The groom comes for the bride that has made herself ready. Jesus comes in Rev 4, before the seals are opened.

 

[Choose Wisely]

It's not good biblical practice to base a doctrine on a parable.
if I were to take something away from that description in Luke, it would be aimed at those who look at Jesus returning on a white horse for Armageddon, you know, your post tribbers. Because that's what happens in Revelation 19. The wedding supper of the lamb, and then Jesus coming down on His white horse with his bride following to see Him destroy the people that killed many in the bride.
OBVIOUSLY the rapture took place before that.
I see 2 places within revelation where the rapture takes place because I see 2 parallel narratives in Revelation. They are very clear to me. It seems that you do not see the break in narrative and see the second narrative.
The first narrative is Chapters 6-11. The 7th trumpet is the end, and it fast forwards to final judgement after the millennium.
You have the beginning of sorrows and great tribulations in the first five seals of chapter 6
The darkening of the sun and moon and coming of Jesus in the clouds (and rapture as described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24) starting in verse 12, and just as in Matthew 24, the tribes of the earth mourn, and they give a very clear demarcation of events Revelation 6:17 The wrath of God did not begin with the seals (after the 5th seal the souls ask why God hasn't started His wrath yet), it begins now.
Then you have the 144,000 sealed to protect them from the wrath, and a great multitude in heaven (those redeemed in the rapture that took place in chapter 6, they weren't there before, they are there now) in chapter 7
Then you have the 7 trumpets, the wrath of God in chapters 8, 9 and 11, which end in a great earthquake and Israel being saved. Understand that chapter 10, reveals to us that the 7th trumpet is the end, the mystery of God revealed, it is prefacing that God's wrath doesn't continue after the trumpets IE the vials are not after all the 7 trumpets have finished, the 7th trumpet is the end.
Then earth is delivered as the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ (Millennial Kingdom) in chapter 11
Finally you have final judgement of all the dead in chapter 11

The second Narrative is chapters 12-20
First you have the great tribulations, back half of chapter 12 and chapter 13
Then you have the 144,000 sealed, followed by the Return of Christ in the clouds, the harvest (the rapture), and the beginning of the wrath of God in chapter 14
Chapter 15, like chapter 7, shows the result of the rapture, a ton of people praising God in heaven.
Chapter 16, is the wrath of God
Chapter 16 also has a great earthquake, just as in chapter 11
It also gives more details on the final destructions of the wicked vs the first narrative, such as Babylon being destroyed, the wedding supper of the lamb, and Armageddon. Followed by the millennial kingdom, and final destruction of the world in fire, followed by final judgement chapters 18-20

I see no place of a pretrib rapture in any of that. John being invited up in Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture, it's not a resurrection or return of the Lord in the clouds, context says that it is only John taken up in order to witness the visions.


.

I read Revelation just like you in that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump. Then we get a different view of the same thing.

What you are missing is that there is two raptures. The 1st is the rapture of the Church as we see 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and we see kings and priests from across the world in Rev 5. We see a second rapture in the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same coming that you see in Matt 24, which is the same coming as Rev 14. To understand who is being raptured you might check for first fruits.

 

[Jamdoc]

I read Revelation just like you in that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump. Then we get a different view of the same thing.

What you are missing is that there is two raptures. The 1st is the rapture of the Church as we see 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and we see kings and priests from across the world in Rev 5. We see a second rapture in the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same coming that you see in Matt 24, which is the same coming as Rev 14. To understand who is being raptured you might check for first fruits.

There's only 2 resurrections, and the rapture is the first. The 2nd resurrection is after the millennium and just before judgement.
So I don't see multiple raptures because the one Paul referred to was a resurrection at the beginning.
The rapture Paul looked for was at the coming of Jesus, the one with the resurrection preceding it
So where is it that there are multiple raptures if there are only 2 resurrections?

 

[Douggg]

We see a second rapture in the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the same coming that you see in Matt 24, which is the same coming as Rev 14.

No rapture at the 6th seal.

 

[Choose Wisely]

There's only 2 resurrections, and the rapture is the first. The 2nd resurrection is after the millennium and just before judgement.
So I don't see multiple raptures because the one Paul referred to was a resurrection at the beginning.
The rapture Paul looked for was at the coming of Jesus, the one with the resurrection preceding it
So where is it that there are multiple raptures if there are only 2 resurrections?

Like I said, we view Revelation in the same sequence. You are missing what is happening in the rapture at the 6th seal. It's the same rapture we see here.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

These are the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured as they sing the song of Moses. This is not the Church as they are already in heaven in Rev 4 and 5.

 

[Choose Wisely]

No rapture at the 6th seal.

Well, of course there is a rapture at the 6th seal. Where do think that the great multitude comes from?

 

[Douggg]

Well, of course there is a rapture at the 6th seal. Where do think that the great multitude comes from?

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are martyrs that come out of the great tribulation. It is their souls in Revelation 7. Their bodies will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Timtofly]

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are martyrs that come out of the great tribulation. It is their souls in Revelation 7. Their bodies will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

No. There have been martyrs since Abel. Cain did not kill Abel after the great tribulation. The church is in Chapter 7 complete and glorified. No more additional souls in the the church after the 6th seal. Revelation 20 is the resurrection of martyrs after the church is complete, killed during the Trumpets, Thunders and harvested as wheat, the sheep, and those beheaded, not taking the mark. A very motley crew, but none part of the glorified church. These people have to populate the earth for 1000 years in incorruptible bodies. These are not left behind apostate church members given a second chance. These are not Christ rejectors given a second chance. These are lost people, the church failed to take the gospel to. Those beheaded just plain reject Satan and anything Satan demands.

 

[Jamdoc]

Like I said, we view Revelation in the same sequence. You are missing what is happening in the rapture at the 6th seal. It's the same rapture we see here.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

These are the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured as they sing the song of Moses. This is not the Church as they are already in heaven in Rev 4 and 5.

Okay you're going to have to explain, because what Paul is looking for, is the for Jesus to come down from the clouds, resurrecting the dead in Christ, and catching up people to meet Him in the clouds.

That's the 3 critical components of "the rapture".
It's at the coming of Jesus, meaning it is NOT a secret rapture before the coming of Jesus (and in fact it's quite noisy, He comes down with a shout, the voice of an archangel shouting and the trump of God, the last trumpet (not to be mistaken for the 7th trumpet judgement that post tribbers make the mistake of doing, Paul was writing to the Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation, to be referring to something that the Corinthians had NO IDEA about makes no sense in his letter))
It's a resurrection of the dead in Christ
and it's a capturing up of those who are still alive at the time who are in Christ.

From Revelation 20 we know there are 2 resurrections, and one of them is at the end just before final judgement, meaning there is only 1 that comes before final judgement.
So you have to look at where Jesus comes down to Earth.
We've both identified that as the 6th seal (and paralleled in Revelation 14, as we both note, the RESULT of the rapture is multitudes joyously shouting praise for God in heaven, in both Revelation 7 and Revelation 15)
What you're wanting to do is inject a rapture that is NOT with the coming of our Lord, that is somehow NOT a resurrection. Just a catching up of those who are alive.

The whole point of that part of the Letter to the Thessalonians is that the dead would not miss out on the coming of Jesus. Which if you have a rapture without a resurrection, they WOULD miss out on it.

 

[Douggg]

No. There have been martyrs since Abel. Cain did not kill Abel after the great tribulation. The church is in Chapter 7 complete and glorified. No more additional souls in the the church after the 6th seal. Revelation 20 is the resurrection of martyrs after the church is complete, killed during the Trumpets, Thunders and harvested as wheat, the sheep, and those beheaded, not taking the mark. A very motley crew, but none part of the glorified church. These people have to populate the earth for 1000 years in incorruptible bodies. These are not left behind apostate church members given a second chance. These are not Christ rejectors given a second chance. These are lost people, the church failed to take the gospel to. Those beheaded just plain reject Satan and anything Satan demands.

The multitude in Revelation 7 coming out the great tribulation are not called the church in the text. Instead, they should be considered the great tribulation saints, who have died during the great tribulation.

It is their souls in heaven, in Revelation 7. They do not receive their resurrected bodies until Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Jamdoc]

The multitude in Revelation 7 coming out the great tribulation are not called the church in the text. Instead, they should be considered the great tribulation saints, who have died during the great tribulation.

It is their souls in heaven, in Revelation 7. They do not receive their resurrected bodies until Revelation 20:4-6.

John doesn't describe them as souls in Revelation 7 or 15
He does describe them as souls in Revelation 6 after the 5th seal.

You also need to strongly consider what Paul said in Galatians 3:28 by making 'dispensations' to separate yourself from not only israel, but an entirely new class of people you segretate yourself from your "tribulation saints"
All because you're afraid of what Jesus said would happen to those saints? Afraid of persecution by men?
Christians got their heads cut off by ISIS, set on fire in a cage and left to burn to death, heads crushed by stones, all kinds of grotesque forms of execution, and they died for not forsaking the faith of Jesus Christ, and you, in CUSHY USA, are so afraid that you expect God to take you away before any non believer wicked human raises their hand against you?
Not to say that every believer will be Martyred, Jesus said that those days would be shortened for our sake so that some of us would still be alive when He came back for us, but Jesus told His apostles they'd face these things, and Jesus told Christians in the end times (which is what is meant in Matthew 24:15 by (whoso readeth, let him understand)) that they'd see the abomination of desolation.

He didn't say we'd face the oceans turning to blood or demons from hell stinging people for 5 months.
So we don't have to worry about the wrath of God.
But tribulation from other humans? that may be on our plate.
and why? Because Christians who refuse to renounce their faith, even until their death, is a testimony that glorifies God, and even causes people to repent and believe.

 

[iamlamad]

Still don't have the ability to figure out that the books of Revelation are not written in order? What have you been doing? Have you tried teaming up with a more experienced person that might could help?

Perhaps you can get with me and get some help. It seems you cannot figure out that Revelation IS written in perfect order. But it does take understanding.

 

[iamlamad]

The multitude in Revelation 7 coming out the great tribulation are not called the church in the text. Instead, they should be considered the great tribulation saints, who have died during the great tribulation.

It is their souls in heaven, in Revelation 7. They do not receive their resurrected bodies until Revelation 20:4-6.

Except that John has not even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half where the days of GT will be.
They are the just raptured church. No other group mentioned in Revelation will be so large. There is no hint they are in spirit form or that they are only "souls." The truth is, the rapture just happened, just before Wrath at the 6th seal.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Okay you're going to have to explain, because what Paul is looking for, is the for Jesus to come down from the clouds, resurrecting the dead in Christ, and catching up people to meet Him in the clouds.

So what do we see in Matt 24 which is the same coming as the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We can confirm that Jesus remains in the clouds in Rev 14
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

You are confusing the event of Jesus remaining in the clouds and sending His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth with the event when the Lord Himself comes.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These are obviously two different events as in one event the Lord remains in the clouds and sends His angels and in another event the Lord Himself comes.

That's the 3 critical components of "the rapture".
It's at the coming of Jesus, meaning it is NOT a secret rapture before the coming of Jesus (and in fact it's quite noisy, He comes down with a shout, the voice of an archangel shouting and the trump of God, the last trumpet

It will be a "secret rapture" of the Church as we can clearly see in scripture.

From Revelation 20 we know there are 2 resurrections, and one of them is at the end just before final judgement, meaning there is only 1 that comes before final judgement.
So you have to look at where Jesus comes down to Earth.
We've both identified that as the 6th seal (and paralleled in Revelation 14, as we both note, the RESULT of the rapture is multitudes joyously shouting praise for God in heaven, in both Revelation 7 and Revelation 15)

As I have shown above Jesus does not come to the earth at the 6th seal (Rev 14) so He obviously comes to the earth at a different time. That time will be when the groom comes for the bride.

What you're wanting to do is inject a rapture that is NOT with the coming of our Lord, that is somehow NOT a resurrection. Just a catching up of those who are alive. The whole point of that part of the Letter to the Thessalonians is that the dead would not miss out on the coming of Jesus. Which if you have a rapture without a resurrection, they WOULD miss out on it.

Oh no. The Lord Himself will come for His Church. The dead in Christ is the barley harvest, the alive Church is the wheat harvest. Then we have the fall fruit harvest which is the 6th seal, Rev 14 harvest.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are martyrs that come out of the great tribulation. It is their souls in Revelation 7. Their bodies will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

Well Doug, you got a problem
Daniel 12 shows a resurrection right after the time of trouble, the great tribulation. What are you going to do with this?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What you are looking at in the 5th seal is the great tribulation. There is a resurrection with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. We see the great multitude that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7. We can see that they have resurrected bodies after the tribulation in Rev 12.

So I believe you are in error.

 

[iamlamad]

So what do we see in Matt 24 which is the same coming as the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We can confirm that Jesus remains in the clouds in Rev 14
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

You are confusing the event of Jesus remaining in the clouds and sending His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth with the event when the Lord Himself comes.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These are obviously two different events as in one event the Lord remains in the clouds and sends His angels and in another event the Lord Himself comes.

It will be a "secret rapture" of the Church as we can clearly see in scripture.



As I have shown above Jesus does not come to the earth at the 6th seal (Rev 14) so He obviously comes to the earth at a different time. That time will be when the groom comes for the bride.


Oh no. The Lord Himself will come for His Church. The dead in Christ is the barley harvest, the alive Church is the wheat harvest. Then we have the fall fruit harvest which is the 6th seal, Rev 14 harvest.

So what do we see in Matt 24 which is the same coming as the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14. If we can't believe your first sentence, why should we read any further?
Anyone can SAY these are the same comings; but to prove this will be impossible, for the simple reason, all three of these will happen at different times. This is the result of ignoring or just not understanding the TIMING of the events in Revelation.
The 6th seal is before any part of the 70th week.
Chapter 14 of Revelation is just after the midpoint of the week.
Jesus coming as shown in Matthew 24 is His coming in Revelation 19, AFTER the 70th week.

In other words, they cannot be the same coming. There will only be two more comings: one seen in 1 Thes. 4, which is a pretrib coming to pick up His Bride, then one shown in Rev. 9 which will be a posttrib coming to Armageddon.

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
30...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(This is "after the tribulation of those days." It will be days of darkness and wondering: what disaster will be next? No one is going to be thinking "peace and safety" after an earthquake tht shakes the mountains down into the earth.)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is at a time like today when people think "peace and safety." According to Paul it will be just before wrath, or just before the Day of His wrath, or just before the 6th seal earthquake. It cannot be compared with any event after the trib of those days which would be after Rev. 16.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
This is a symbolic harvest to represent those that will be beheaded and those that take the mark and are doomed: two symbolic harvests.

It will be a "secret rapture" of the Church What about it will be secret? It is going to be extremely loud and noise. And in one instant, perhaps half the world's population will just disappear.The world will instantly be in a panic.

 

[iamlamad]

John doesn't describe them as souls in Revelation 7 or 15
He does describe them as souls in Revelation 6 after the 5th seal.

You also need to strongly consider what Paul said in Galatians 3:28 by making 'dispensations' to separate yourself from not only israel, but an entirely new class of people you segretate yourself from your "tribulation saints"
All because you're afraid of what Jesus said would happen to those saints? Afraid of persecution by men?
Christians got their heads cut off by ISIS, set on fire in a cage and left to burn to death, heads crushed by stones, all kinds of grotesque forms of execution, and they died for not forsaking the faith of Jesus Christ, and you, in CUSHY USA, are so afraid that you expect God to take you away before any non believer wicked human raises their hand against you?
Not to say that every believer will be Martyred, Jesus said that those days would be shortened for our sake so that some of us would still be alive when He came back for us, but Jesus told His apostles they'd face these things, and Jesus told Christians in the end times (which is what is meant in Matthew 24:15 by (whoso readeth, let him understand)) that they'd see the abomination of desolation.

He didn't say we'd face the oceans turning to blood or demons from hell stinging people for 5 months.
So we don't have to worry about the wrath of God.
But tribulation from other humans? that may be on our plate.
and why? Because Christians who refuse to renounce their faith, even until their death, is a testimony that glorifies God, and even causes people to repent and believe.

One could believe this, but only if they lack understanding of the timing and chronology of Revelation. John makes it clear, the raptured saints seen in heaven in chapter 7, before any part of the 70th week, and before any part of God's wrath.

 

[Choose Wisely]

So what do we see in Matt 24 which is the same coming as the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14. If we can't believe your first sentence, why should we read any further?

If you can't believe my first sentence, you should not read any further. You should jump in with both feet and figure out why you do not understand my first sentence. If you don't understand it, your time line in Revelation is so far off you are wasting your time.

Anyone can SAY these are the same comings; but to prove this will be impossible, for the simple reason, all three of these will happen at different times. This is the result of ignoring or just not understanding the TIMING of the events in Revelation.

Proving that these three comings are the same coming is not the problem. Getting the blind to see is the problem.

The 6th seal is before any part of the 70th week.

The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal. How is it that you do not understand this?

Chapter 14 of Revelation is just after the midpoint of the week.

Rev 14 is just another view of the 1st six seals. We see the 144,000 in heaven. We see the great tribulation (5th seal) and we see the coming of Jesus for the harvest (6th seal).

Jesus coming as shown in Matthew 24 is His coming in Revelation 19, AFTER the 70th week.

No, Jesus coming in Matt 24 is His coming at the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14. How is it that you do not understand this? Here is your mark to line up the events of Matt 24 and Rev 6.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

In other words, they cannot be the same coming. There will only be two more comings: one seen in 1 Thes. 4, which is a pretrib coming to pick up His Bride, then one shown in Rev. 9 which will be a posttrib coming to Armageddon.

The 1 thes 4 coming happens BEFORE ANY SEALS are opened.

This is at a time like today when people think "peace and safety." According to Paul it will be just before wrath, or just before the Day of His wrath, or just before the 6th seal earthquake. It cannot be compared with any event after the trib of those days which would be after Rev. 16.

You do understand that the 5th seal is the great tribulation don't you? You do understand that we see those that come out of the great tribulation in Rev 15 don't you?

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
This is a symbolic harvest to represent those that will be beheaded and those that take the mark and are doomed: two symbolic harvests.

Symbolic harvest? You're confused again aren't you.

It will be a "secret rapture" of the Church What about it will be secret? It is going to be extremely loud and noise. And in one instant, perhaps half the world's population will just disappear.The world will instantly be in a panic.

You should probably study up if you want to understand the secret rapture. However, this understanding appears to be the least of your worries. I really don't know what to say as it appears that you are wrong across the board.

 

[iamlamad]

If you can't believe my first sentence, you should not read any further. You should jump in with both feet and figure out why you do not understand my first sentence. If you don't understand it, your time line in Revelation is so far off you are wasting your time.

Proving that these three comings are the same coming is not the problem. Getting the blind to see is the problem.
The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal. How is it that you do not understand this?

Rev 14 is just another view of the 1st six seals. We see the 144,000 in heaven. We see the great tribulation (5th seal) and we see the coming of Jesus for the harvest (6th seal).

No, Jesus coming in Matt 24 is His coming at the 6th seal, which is the same coming as Rev 14. How is it that you do not understand this? Here is your mark to line up the events of Matt 24 and Rev 6.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The 1 thes 4 coming happens BEFORE ANY SEALS are opened.



You do understand that the 5th seal is the great tribulation don't you? You do understand that we see those that come out of the great tribulation in Rev 15 don't you?


Symbolic harvest? You're confused again aren't you.

You should probably study up if you want to understand the secret rapture. However, this understanding appears to be the least of your worries. I really don't know what to say as it appears that you are wrong across the board.

It seems everything you write is myth. I cannot believe anything I read on this post. It seems you ascribe to the "prewrath" theory. No wonder I disagree.

I really hope you don't believe God will harvest people with a sickle!

 

[Choose Wisely]

It seems everything you write is myth. I cannot believe anything I read on this post. It seems you ascribe to the "prewrath" theory. No wonder I disagree.

I really hope you don't believe God will harvest people with a sickle!

Pre trib Church rapture, prewrath 12 tribes across the earth rapture............Just like the word says.