My Lunar Dragon Challenge

[Split Rock]

The mods closed my unicorn thread, apparently because the Invisible Pink Unicorn is often used as an argument against Christian Apologetics, even though that isn't what I was using it for. So, I am replacing it with this.

The Chinese have long claimed that a dragon ate chunks of the moon and that was the cause of the moon's phases. After the New Moon phase, the moon would grow back and the dragon would start eating it again.

Show me evidence that a Celestrial Dragon eats the Moon.

I will take your word on it if you say that none exists.

 

[Thistlethorn]

The mods closed my unicorn thread, apparently because the Invisible Pink Unicorn is often used as an argument against Christian Apologetics, even though that isn't what I was using it for. So, I am replacing it with this.

The Chinese have long claimed that a dragon ate chunks of the moon and that was the cause of the moon's phases. After the New Moon phase, the moon would grow back and the dragon would start eating it again.

Show me evidence that a Celestrial Dragon eats the Moon.

I will take your word on it if you say that none exists.

We are not allowed to argue against Christian apologetics here?

 

[MrJDSmith]

We are not allowed to argue against Christian apologetics here?

IIRC Not using the IPU or FSM

 

[gaara4158]

Well, if we can't produce any evidence for it, that must mean it's true!

 

[Thistlethorn]

IIRC Not using the IPU or FSM

Does anyone know why?

 

[MrJDSmith]

Does anyone know why?

I think it started over a year ago.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7267571/

 

[super animator]

The mods closed my unicorn thread, apparently because the Invisible Pink Unicorn is often used as an argument against Christian Apologetics, even though that isn't what I was using it for.

Then you should elaborate more when you post your other topic.

 

[Alunyel]

Does anyone know why?

No idea, the IPU and the FSM are just placeholders, you could quite literally stick anything imaginary in its place, without detracting from the argument.

"Transparent magenta unicorn."
"Aerial pasta beast."

Both work just as well.

Seems a bit... nitpicky to disallow the use of the IPU or the FSM to illustrate a point.

 

[dewaddict84]

Let loose the dogs of war and cry havoc! For we shall have a "War on Allegories!"(TM)

 

[Split Rock]

We are not allowed to argue against Christian apologetics here?

They closed the General Apologetics sub-forum a while ago. It seems that questioning Christian Apologetics is now a no-no. Not that it matters to me, since I don't have much interest in it.

 

[Meshach]

The mods closed my unicorn thread, apparently because the Invisible Pink Unicorn is often used as an argument against Christian Apologetics, even though that isn't what I was using it for. So, I am replacing it with this.

The Chinese have long claimed that a dragon ate chunks of the moon and that was the cause of the moon's phases. After the New Moon phase, the moon would grow back and the dragon would start eating it again.

Show me evidence that a Celestrial Dragon eats the Moon.

I will take your word on it if you say that none exists.

As far as a Celestial Dragon, no one knows everything the ONLY true God has created out there but there are plenty of references in the bible to dragons. Here are a few found in the KJV .

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Deuteronomy 32:33 their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalms 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalms 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalms 148:7 ¶ Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 10:22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 14:6 And the wild did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 49:33 And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, and a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor any son of man dwell in it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Micah 1:8 ¶ Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and : I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nehemiah 2:13 And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well, and to the dung port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalms 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out. [/FONT]

The Chinese have long held traditions of dragons.Fire breathing ones that flew as well. Their culture is loaded with stories and pictures, parades and all sorts of stuff pertaining to dragons.I will post a few links to images of what you speak of here.

A dragon taking a bite out of the moon

A bigger dragon looking like he can down the moon in one bite

A more relaxed image of the claim

What's this? A dragon spirit after the moon?

Is it a myth, or not? The story unfolds even further.


In considering just this bit of info I dug up I am unable to determine if the claim is true or not. There is an even wilder myth floating around though. Get this. We use to be fish. Yah fish. Can you see the resemblance? Not just random mutations but a complete transformation. From the head, brain, eyes, skin, heart, lungs, bladder, arms, legs, knees, elbows, skin, fingers, toes, kidneys, finger nails, toe nails, hair, ears, teeth, mouth, tongue, reproduction system, nervous system, respitory system. and the list goes on and on and on. Not only do we have things that fish dont, everything we have that they have are completely different. And those who believe this believe while all these random mutations are happening (most of which are detrimental) male and female must evolve simutaniously along with each other or else.
When they find a so called transitional they have NO WAY of proving its from the human line. They dont know what it used to be or what its going to be. For instance the Tiktaalik. What creature did the Tiktaalik evolve into ? A lion, was it us, the Homo sapien? Were we a Tiktaalik at one time? You have to be gullible to accept that. I dont think I can ever be that gullible.



Below are just the skeletons of a fish and a human, can you imagine the random mutations(most of which are detrimental)just for this transformation. Now put all the inards and outards in place. Wow, talk about gullible to believe that. Its miracle after miracle. Are you sure natural selection isn't a god?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

When they find a so called transitional they have NO WAY of proving its from the human line. They dont know what it used to be or what its going to be. For instance the Tiktaalik. What creature did the Tiktaalik evolve into ? A lion, was it us, the Homo sapien? Were we a Tiktaalik at one time? You have to be gullible to accept that. I dont think I can ever be that gullible.

Whether or not a fossil is in the direct line of descent is completely irrelevant. That's not the point of transitional fossils. What transitional fossils are, are fossils which demonstrate mosiac characteristics between earlier and later species.

These fossils may not represent direct descendents, but what they are is representative of species from a particular time period.

 

[Alunyel]

Below are just the skeletons of a fish and a human, can you imagine the random mutations(most of which are detrimental)just for this transformation. Now put all the inards and outards in place. Wow, talk about gullible to believe that. Its miracle after miracle. Are you sure natural selection isn't a god?

Gullible? Not quite.

Every single fossil we've ever found is transitional between one species and another, as is every animal alive today, ourselves included.

YouTube - Walking with Monsters - Evolution

We've got fossils for everything in that video.

Although, that video is just little clips from the whole series, the Walking With... series is genius.

Walking with Monsters
Walking with Dinosaurs
Walking with Beasts
Walking with Cavemen

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Every single fossil we've ever found is transitional between one species and another, as is every animal alive today, ourselves included.

Eh........ not quite. Like I recently posted in another forum, most definitions of transitional fossils refer to fossils that show specific charactistics in between two higher taxa. Fossils that don't meet this would include:

Fossils that don't meet this include:

1) Fossils that are too fragmentary to show any intermediary characteristics

2) Trace fossils that don't show morphology

3) Fossils of evolutionary "dead ends"

 

[Alunyel]

Eh........ not quite. Like I recently posted in another forum, most definitions of transitional fossils refer to fossils that show specific charactistics in between two higher taxa. Fossils that don't meet this would include:

Fossils that don't meet this include:

1) Fossils that are too fragmentary to show any intermediary characteristics

2) Trace fossils that don't show morphology

3) Fossils of evolutionary "dead ends"

The only one of those three that is true are the "dead end" fossils.

If the fossil's too small, too broken, and we can't tell what it's from, then it's impossible to tell whether it's a transitional fossil or not, it could just as easily be from a "dead end" as it could from something that evolved.

All fossils that aren't from dead end species, are transitional, though.

 

[Thistlethorn]

Eh........ not quite. Like I recently posted in another forum, most definitions of transitional fossils refer to fossils that show specific charactistics in between two higher taxa. Fossils that don't meet this would include:

Fossils that don't meet this include:

1) Fossils that are too fragmentary to show any intermediary characteristics

2) Trace fossils that don't show morphology

3) Fossils of evolutionary "dead ends"

Remember, we are talking about AV here. There's no point bringing out the exceptions when he can't even grasp the basics.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

If the fossil's too small, too broken, and we can't tell what it's from, then it's impossible to tell whether it's a transitional fossil or not, it could just as easily be from a "dead end" as it could from something that evolved.

But in terms of what a transitional fossil is as typically defined as a fossil showing a mosiac of characteristics between old and new species, then a transitional fossil by definition needs to show those characteristics. It could be from a transitional species, but without defining transitional characteristics you can't label it a transitional fossil.

 

[Alunyel]

But in terms of what a transitional fossil is as typically defined as a fossil showing a mosiac of characteristics between old and new species, then a transitional fossil by definition needs to show those characteristics. It could be from a transitional species, but without defining transitional characteristics you can't label it a transitional fossil.

But all fossils (Except for the dead end ones) will be of a species that has characteristics of the previous and next species.

The next species' fossils will also have characteristics of the last species and the next species.

If we found a species that wasn't a dead end, but also wasn't a transitional species, then something's gone very, very wrong...

 

[Pete Harcoff]

But all fossils (Except for the dead end ones) will be of a species that has characteristics of the previous and next species.

But if the fossil doesn't have those characteristics because it's too fragmentary, then how would you know?

edited to add: I started a new thread here, so we don't derail this thread further.

 

[sbvera13]

For people that are so set on proving that America was founded on Christian ideals, they sure are willing to show their contempt for freedom of speach.

As for the dragon: No scientifically verifiable evidence for such a dragon exists.