Futurist Only my latest chart

[Douggg]

maybe he should not be on your ignore list

I rather just ignore, than trying to convince preterists from their beliefs.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The gap timewise between the 69th and 70th week is not empty, but is the time of the gentiles, and the spreading of the gospel of the kingdom to the nations.

I don't what all of the reformers taught. But any who taught the 70th week was already fulfilled - they are wrong, and yes I go against that teaching.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[DavidPT]

What is your basis for thinking that ?

The little season is not the martyring time. It is a waiting period, after most of the martyring has been done.

You are not reading the text carefully enough in that case. Or if not that, you are not properly putting 2 and 2 together in that case. Would be a cpl of educated guesses.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The first thing to note is this---How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This obviously tells us God is not yet ready to judge and avenge their blood at this point. Not until the following is fulfilled first---that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

While they are resting this little season in heaven, in the meantime this same little season is in progress on the earth, since these are martyred while the ones in heaven are resting this little season.

Then, if we factor in the 6th seal, the fact that involves God's wrath, this indicates that this little season has been fulfilled at this point, thus no martyring of saints ever again, and that we are now in the time of God judging and avenging the blood of all the martyrs meant in the 5th seal, which now include their brethren that are martyred during the little season the ones under the altar are resting during.

Obviously, when their brethern are martyred back on earth, they join these other martyrs resting under the altar, and not like Amils assume, where they assume they continue reigning on thrones with Christ, but in heaven now, thus continue reigning a thousand years.

As of the 6th seal, the time period would be the following.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


And what follows that? The 7 vials of wrath. And notice what Revelation 19:2 records.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


How can that not be meaning an answer to Revelation 6:10? How can Revelation 19:2 be involving any of the first 5 seals when the 5th seal alone proves God is not yet avenging their blood at this point?

And since Revelation 19:2 proves that the wrath of God is after the 5th seal, as does the 5th seal also prove this, how can anyone still instist God's wrath involves any of the seals prior to seal 6, and that God's wrath involves the great trib even though God's wrath doesn't begin until the 6th seal, and that Matthew 24:29 places the 6th seal after the great trib?

 

[parousia70]

Pope Francis officially apologized for persecuting Protestants on January 25

Good for Him. Stand up guy that Francis.
The Protestant sect leaders ought to follow his lead and apologize for their troubling legacy too.

 

[Douggg]

While they are resting this little season in heaven, in the meantime this same little season is in progress on the earth, since these are martyred while the ones in heaven are resting this little season.

I agree. But consider when during the 7 years, the question in the 5th seal is asked.

It will be near the end of the 7 years and great tribulation... as the 5th seal comes after seals 2, 3, 4.

Look on my chart of what each of those seals speak about, as the great tribulation progresses. War, food shortages, inflation, widespread dying due to war, starvation, animal predation.

Jesus will avenge the deaths of great tribulation martyrs at his return to the Mt of Olives. The sixth seal is the sign of Him in heaven that he is coming to do so.

If you want to make a point that there will be believers martyred over the course of the great tribulation, I have no disagreement with that.

I will do this... change my chart so that below Seal 5, instead of "martyrs for not worshipping the beast nor his image" to "martyred saints request Jesus
to avenge their deaths".

David, can you see that "the little season" is between when they make the request and Jesus returning to the Mt. of Olives to avenge their deaths ?


.

 

[Chris Thomas Shepherd]

The foundation at the base of the chart for the 7 year 70th week is found in the 6 seals in chapter 6,

then the great multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7,

then the seventh seal in chapters 8-9,

then the seventh trumpet in chapters 10-11.

right click on the chart, then choose "open in new tab", then click on the new tab to view the chart full screen.



View attachment 321022

My timeline is slightly different but you have covered the main aspects very well. Thanks

By the way, I am for the most part leaving this forum. I have been warned not to use future dates, so I am joining the 'Controversial Christian' Forum.
Take care!

 

[Douggg]

My timeline is slightly different but you have covered the main aspects very well. Thanks

By the way, I am for the most part leaving this forum. I have been warned not to use future dates, so I am joining the 'Controversial Christian' Forum.
Take care!

I am glad you found a forum that you can express your view. You should receive many responses.

 

[keras]

But consider when during the 7 years, the question in the 5th seal is asked.

They are the martyrs from all this age; NOT the GT martyrs. Their killers will be Judged after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 The killers of the GT martyrs, will die at Armageddon.
ALL the Seals are opened before the final 7 years.

Your placement of the 7 Seals in conjunction with the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is wrong; proved by Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8, where we are told those 'horsemen' are already ranging the earth. Which fact is obvious by the many wars, famines, plagues and murdered martyrs that have happened.

I see your attempts to mis-place the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, as avoidance and rejection of many Bible prophesies. It leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for His people.

 

[Chris Thomas Shepherd]

They are the martyrs from all this age; NOT the GT martyrs. Their killers will be Judged after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 The killers of the GT martyrs, will die at Armageddon.
ALL the Seals are opened before the final 7 years.

Your placement of the 7 Seals in conjunction with the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is wrong; proved by Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8, where we are told those 'horsemen' are already ranging the earth. Which fact is obvious by the many wars, famines, plagues and murdered martyrs that have happened.

I see your attempts to mis-place the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, as avoidance and rejection of many Bible prophesies. It leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for His people.

I agree, the six seals come before the seventh seal/seven Trumpets.

 

[Douggg]

They are the martyrs from all this age; NOT the GT martyrs. Their killers will be Judged after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15 The killers of the GT martyrs, will die at Armageddon.

Them in the 5th seal are the great tribulation martyrs. And among them responsible for their deaths are the beast and false prophet, who Jesus will avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs will be at His Return.

Differently, the killers of them martyred across the span of history will be judged after the millennium at the Great White Throne Judgement.

ALL the Seals are opened before the final 7 years.

The seals were opened by Jesus at the time of John - or else know one would know what is in the book.

The events of the seals are end times, the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

Your placement of the 7 Seals in conjunction with the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is wrong; proved by Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8, where we are told those 'horsemen' are already ranging the earth.

No, that is not what those verses in Zechariah say. The book in Revelation 6 that Jesus unsealed is a book of the future. Events to take place, in the 7 years before Jesus returns.

Which fact is obvious by the many wars, famines, plagues and murdered martyrs that have happened.

The riders in Revelation 6 are in sequence, as the intensity of the great tribulation increases.

What you are talking about is concurrent to each other events, not sequence events.

I see your attempts to mis-place the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, as avoidance and rejection of many Bible prophesies. It leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for His people.

The sixth seal reveals the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - your scenario is invalid, because you don't recognize that.

And your scenario that it will be Christians who will rebuild the temple on the temple mount, and it will be Christians who start the animal sacrifices again - is just preposterous.

 

[keras]

Them in the 5th seal are the great tribulation martyrs.

No, they are not. They are told to wait until their number was completed - with the GT martyrs.

Differently, the killers of them martyred across the span of history will be judged after the millennium at the Great White Throne Judgement.

I agree.
But the killers of the GT martyrs will die at Armageddon and will also stand in Judgement at the GWT.

The seals were opened by Jesus at the time of John - or else know one would know what is in the book.

The events of the seals are end times, the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

A contradictory statement.
Only the first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. John wrote in Revelation what will happen when the Sixth Seal; plus the rest are opened.

No, that is not what those verses in Zechariah say.

A flat out denial of plain scripture.

The riders in Revelation 6 are in sequence, as the intensity of the great tribulation increases.

Those 4 horsemen have nothing to do with the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.

The sixth seal reveals the sign of the Son of Man in heaven -

The Sixt Seal is a plainly stated worldwide disaster. The peoples, everyone; Luke 21:34, will dive for cover, some may call out: Hide us from the wrath of God and the Lamb, but they do not see them or and sign, as you like to think.

And your scenario that it will be Christians who will rebuild the temple on the temple mount, and it will be Christians who start the animal sacrifices again - is just preposterous.

And your rejection of the many Bible prophesies which say there will be a new Temple and offerings will be made in it, are just blinded foolishness.

 

[Douggg]

No, they are not. They are told to wait until their number was completed - with the GT martyrs.

Yes, they are. They are martyrs from the time of seals 2,3,4... the riders on the red horse, black horse, pale horse.

A contradictory statement.
Only the first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. John wrote in Revelation what will happen when the Sixth Seal is opened.

No, that is not in Revelation 6. I think you are confusing "opened" with "fulfilled". I think in your statement you intend "opened" as meaning "fulfilled".

You are confusing people, keras, by not using the right words.

Jesus opened six of the seals in Revelation 6, revealing what was in the book. The seventh seal was opened in Revelation 8:1. None of them have been fulfilled yet.

Revelation 6
verse 1 - the Lamb opened one of the seals, the first seal.
verse 3 - he opened the second seal
verse 5 - he opened the third seal
verse 7 - he opened the fourth seal
verse 9 - he opened the fifth seal
verse 12 - he opened the sixth seal

The Sixt Seal is a plainly stated worldwide disaster. The peoples, everyone; Luke 21:34, will dive for cover, some may call out: Hide us from the wrath of God and the Lamb, but they do not see them or and sign, as you like to think.

It does not say anything about a worldwide disaster in the sixth seal.

We are not talking about Luke 21:34. Luke 21:34 does not have the sign of the Son of Man in heaven in it.

In Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

It does not say the wrath of God in that verse. But the wrath of the Lamb - Jesus - who is about to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyred saints, against them people who are living at the time.

Not against persons who have died already and are in hell, like Nero.

 

[The Liturgist]

p70, if you adjusted your world view from Catholic and Protestants to....

Catholics

Protestants

Other - such as messianic's, non-denominational (like me), etc.

....you would have a more accurate view of the makeup of Christianity. I too, believe that the pope is not the Antichrist - but I am not a protestant, nor a Catholic.

Also, don’t forget the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East. The Eastern Orthodox are the second largest denomination, the Oriental Orthodox are larger than the Methodists and Baptists, and the Church of the East used to be the largest denomination in terms of membership and geographical area, until the genocide of the Islamic warlord Tamerlane in the 12th century (who, disturbingly, is revered as a national hero in Uzbekistan). But even today, there are about a million or two Assyrians and they comprise the largest surviving population of vernacular Aramaic speakers, with at least 700,000 speaking Neo-Assyrian Eastern Aramaic fluently as their first language, and all of their clergy also able to speak and read Classical Syriac fluently.

 

[grafted branch]

The foundation at the base of the chart for the 7 year 70th week is found in the 6 seals in chapter 6,

then the great multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation in chapter 7,

then the seventh seal in chapters 8-9,

then the seventh trumpet in chapters 10-11.

right click on the chart, then choose "open in new tab", then click on the new tab to view the chart full screen.



View attachment 321024

Ok Doug, I’ve been thinking about your chart and here is a problem that I see.

When those in Revelation 6:10 ask how long till the judging and avenging of their blood, they would already know this if your chart was accurate.

 

[Douggg]

Ok Doug, I’ve been thinking about your chart and here is a problem that I see.

When those in Revelation 6:10 ask how long till the judging and avenging of their blood, they would already know this if your chart was accurate.

Would they would know the length of a little season? No, they would not know the length of the little season - exactly. But they would know that time is fast approaching that Jesus would avenge their blood.

What they are pleading for is justice for being killed for standing up for the word of God and their testimony (in verse 9).

 

[Douggg]

Also, don’t forget the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East.

Okay, all good points. Thanks.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you they would know the length of a little season? No, they would not know the length of the little season - exactly. But they would know that time is fast approaching that Jesus would avenge their blood.

What they are pleading for is justice for being killed for standing up for the word of God and their testimony (in verse 9).

Would you say they are avenged in Revelation 19:20-21 where the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant are slain with the sword?

 

[Douggg]

Would you say they are avenged in Revelation 19:20-21 where the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant are slain with the sword?

Yes. Thanks for contemplating my chart.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes. Thanks for contemplating my chart.

Ok, so then the day that Revelation 19:20-21 occurs can’t be known. Which also means that the day the millennium starts can’t be known ahead of time either. Correct?

 

[keras]

Yes, they are. They are martyrs from the time of seals 2,3,4... the riders on the red horse, black horse, pale horse.

The peope killed by war, famine and plagues, are NOT martyrs.

No, that is not in Revelation 6. I think you are confusing "opened" with "fulfilled". I think in your statement you intend "opened" as meaning "fulfilled".

When any Seal is opened, what it says is then fulfilled, or in the case of Seals 1 to 5, commenced to be fulfilled, an ongoing fulfilment.
Any confusion is in your beliefs.

It does not say anything about a worldwide disaster in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-17 says the Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. Over 100 other Prophesies, OT and NT, fill in the details of what the Lord intends to do on that terrible day.

Not against persons who have died already and are in hell, like Nero.

When was Nero Judged?
Nero, like everyone who has ever lived and died, awaits the GWT Judgement. Revelation 20:11-15

You make wild and weird statements, that directly oppose Bible teaching. Your credibility has gone.