My Kidney Challenge II

[Larniavc]

Not normally.

I think you may not know the woeful American maternal death rates. It’s not safe for many women to give birth in that country.

 

[Hammster]

I think you may not know the woeful American maternal death rates. It’s not safe for many women to give birth in that country.

And what about the mortality rates for women having abortions?

 

[Larniavc]

it would be a another moral calculation with new factors.

In some of the American states the risk of death to mum does not allow an abortion.

In any event: force a woman to deliver a pregnancy to term ask her to roll the dice. And snake eyes means she dies.

No one should be forced to roll that dice.

 

[Larniavc]

And what about the mortality rates for women having abortions?

They are forced to under go a process (carrying pregnancy to term) that could kill her.

 

[tall73]

In some of the American states the risk of death to mum does not allow an abortion.

In any event: force a woman to deliver a pregnancy to term ask her to roll the dice. And snake eyes means she dies.

No one should be forced to roll that dice.

A fertile man and a fertile woman who willingly engage in sex, even with protection, are also rolling the dice. And they were not forced to do so. But they then have obligations to a life thereby brought about because of their choice.

In the scenario of the OP the person being asked to donate did not contribute to the plight of the one needing the kidney. The situations are not parallel.

 

[Larniavc]

A fertile man and a fertile woman who willingly engage in sex, even with protection, are also rolling the dice.

But that is their choice. The willingly roll that dice.

But from that point on the state FORCES the woman to roll that dice.

Willing rolling the dice is not the same as being FORCED to by the state.

 

[tall73]

In some of the American states the risk of death to mum does not allow an abortion.

Then I would think a direct ethical discussion of those laws would be more helpful than comparing it to a kidney donation to someone unrelated entirely.

Most pregnancies are not rape followed by risk to the mother. Some could be, such as the rape of a young child.

But in the case of most pregnancies the person made a choice to have sex, which is not parallel to the kidney donation scenario.

 

[tall73]

But that is their choice. The willingly roll that dice.

But from that point on the state FORCES the woman to roll that dice.

Willing rolling the dice is not the same as being FORCED to by the state.

If you know what the dice roll can bring--pregnancy with obligations--then willingly rolling the dice is accepting that risk.

The state forces the man to pay for the expenses of the child. Men know that possibility going in. And they are rolling the dice.

In the same way pregnancy is a known possibility from sex in that scenario. And she willingly made the choice.

 

[o_mlly]

I believe that morality is subjective, not objective ...

Well, why did you not put that factoid into the OP? You'd have saved us a lot of time. In other words, you have no rational argument to post as instructive to others on the morality of abortion; you just feel that, "I am OK with killing that thing in my womb and please don't bother me with facts or logic".

Why should we think that you as a subjectivist -- "people can’t ever really disagree about moral issues" -- have anything serious to offer by posting in the Ethics and Morality forum?

 

[Hammster]

They are forced to under go a process (carrying pregnancy to term) that could kill her.

You might want to reread my post.

 

[Kylie]

Why would it be wrong for you to deny your child?

Because I love my child and I want what is best for them, and I don't want them to suffer if I can avoid it.

But, let me emphasize once again, I hold that this moral viewpoint is SUBJECTIVE, and not objective.

 

[Hammster]

Because I love my child and I want what is best for them, and I don't want them to suffer if I can avoid it.

But, let me emphasize once again, I hold that this moral viewpoint is SUBJECTIVE, and not objective.

So then you are okay with my morality that says elective abortions should be punished like any other murders.

 

[Kylie]

The scenarios are not parallel.

In the kidney scenario the person who is donating did not bring about the need for a kidney in the person.

In pregnancy the people engaging in sex did bring about the need for the baby to live in the uterus.

So?

If you needed a kidney and I was the only possible donor, but I said, "Nah, don't feel like it, sorry," wouldn't you be upset?

Of course birth control can fail. The failure rate is often published, based on proper use (and can be higher with improper use). That is why engaging in sex between a fertile man and a fertile woman carries with it the potential for life.

Do you think a man having sex with a woman should have to pay child support if the birth control methods used fail? What if he didn't want the child?

He is required to pay child support because he engaged in an act that can lead to life, even when that is not the desired outcome, and even if prevention methods are used.

Not the same thing. the man doesn't have to be pregnant for nine months (that's no walk in the park), or raise the kid. The man can bugger off and have nothing to do with the kid apart from paying a bit each month. So don't try to make them out to be the same thing.

 

[Kylie]

That's not relatable to abortion. Taking a life deliberately isn't the same as refusing to save a life.

If you murder someone you are a murderer. If you don't save someone's life you are just being irresponsible.

Are you sure? If I make a decision about my actions, and the course of action I take results in someone dying, then why make the difference?

 

[Kylie]

Not normally.

303,000 women die each year in childbirth. SOURCE

 

[Kylie]

So then you are okay with my morality that says elective abortions should be punished like any other murders.

As long as you understand that such a moral viewpoint is SUBJECTIVE and not objective, and thus should not be forced onto other people who may not necessarily hold that same viewpoint.

But sure. If you believe that elective abortions are wrong and need to be punished in the same way as a murder, then by all means subject yourself to such a punishment if you ever have an abortion.

 

[Hammster]

303,000 women die each year in childbirth. SOURCE

That’s not very many. How many babies die during abortions?

 

[Hammster]

As long as you understand that such a moral viewpoint is SUBJECTIVE and not objective, and thus should not be forced onto other people who may not necessarily hold that same viewpoint.

But sure. If you believe that elective abortions are wrong and need to be punished in the same way as a murder, then by all means subject yourself to such a punishment if you ever have an abortion.

My morality says it should be forced. You can’t say it’s wrong because it’s subjective.

 

[Kylie]

That’s not very many. How many babies die during abortions?

Three hundred and three thousand isn't very many? Oh that's nice.

 

[Kylie]

My morality says it should be forced. You can’t say it’s wrong because it’s subjective.

You do not have the right to force your beliefs onto others. Your morality applies to YOU and no one else.