My hypothesis on miracles

[Dirk1540]

Sorry if this was already said, I'm skipping around like a nut lol, but there is a difference between hallucinations and illusions. when hundreds of people see an odd occurrence in the sky that gets pegged as a Virgin Mary sighting that is an illusion...let us suppose that the skyline formed a near perfect imagine for such a misinterpretation.

A hallucination has it's origin inside of a person's mind. In the most extreme case if 1 patient at a psych ward who's totally out of his mind says to another patient who's equally out of his mind "Do you see Jesus in the corner there?" The second patient might be so unstable that he actually agrees. But because hallucinations are things that happen inside of a person's mind they might break out into a fist fight over an argument about the color of Jesus' shirt haha.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Sorry if this was already said, I'm skipping around like a nut lol, but there is a difference between hallucinations and illusions. when hundreds of people see an odd occurrence in the sky that gets pegged as a Virgin Mary sighting that is an illusion...let us suppose that the skyline formed a near perfect imagine for such a misinterpretation.

A hallucination has it's origin inside of a person's mind. In the most extreme case if 1 patient at a psych ward who's totally out of his mind says to another patient who's equally out of his mind "Do you see Jesus in the corner there?" The second patient might be so unstable that he actually agrees. But because hallucinations are things that happen inside of a person's mind they might break out into a fist fight over an argument about the color of Jesus' shirt haha.

You're not wrong, but to elaborate:

There are hallucinations, which are incorrect perceptions that appear as if true data from the senses. Nothing is really there.
There are illusions, which are misinterpretations of real data of the senses.
There are delusions, which is a fixed false belief, which may be related to illusions or hallucinations, but might not be.

I used to work in a Psychiatric institution and we had a pair of muslim brothers. One believed he was the second coming of Jesus, and his brother agreed that he was. Both shared the same delusion that one of them was Jesus.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Goatee]

Remember one important thing! God made the law! He can over rule that law if He so wishes!

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Do not leave empty tombs.

Read the essay of Lewis in my first post here. I do not think Jesus' miracles were hallucinations or delusions at all. I think it was the God of the universe doing on a different scale what He does usually. How the small miracle of fermentation was done at once at Cana; or how the one sowed kernel of wheat becomes many, the bread became more, etc.
They were miracles in the true sense of the word, but to retroactively determine a 'miracle' is a very hard thing to do, as we can only examine its consequences from within the confines of our natural laws and methodology.

 

[Dirk1540]

You're not wrong, but to elaborate:

There are hallucinations, which are incorrect perceptions that appear as if true data from the senses. Nothing is really there.
There are illusions, which are misinterpretations of real data of the senses.
There are delusions, which is a fixed false belief, which may be related to illusions or hallucinations, but might not be.

I used to work in a Psychiatric institution and we had a pair of muslim brothers. One believed he was the second coming of Jesus, and his brother agreed that he was. Both shared the same delusion that one of them was Jesus.

Sorry I reread my post thinking that I must have been sloppy with the word 'Delusional.' But I see that I didn't use that word, which part did I make a mistake on exactly?

I don't want to sound disrespectful but the beliefs of those 2 brothers sounds like it could make a funny comedy show. I'd leave Jesus and Islam out of the show, simply 1 brother who things he's God, and the other brother who believes it lol. I've never heard of something like that before that's wild.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Sorry I reread my post thinking that I must have been sloppy with the word 'Delusional.' But I see that I didn't use that word, which part did I make a mistake on exactly?

I don't want to sound disrespectful but the beliefs of those 2 brothers sounds like it could make a funny comedy show. I'd leave Jesus and Islam out of the show, simply 1 brother who things he's God, and the other brother who believes it lol. I've never heard of something like that before that's wild.

Um, I said you're not wrong. So no mistake was made. I merely rephrased it and added delusion as an elaboration of what you said.

It was a bit strange and the psychologists struggled with CBT as they kept reinforcing each others' delusion.

 

[Dirk1540]

It was a bit strange and the psychologists struggled with CBT as they kept reinforcing each others' delusion.

I hope my comment about a comedy show didn't sound rude. I guess I always remember this one line from a Dale Carnegie book I read where he questioned whether or not it would even be favorable to take certain delusional people out of their delusions if they were much happier inside of them. Of course I don't agree with that but it does make me think, maybe IF they are very happy it's not really a heartbreaking problem?? My 1st reaction is always 'Are they happy?' IDK, it was interesting food for thought.

Um, I said you're not wrong.

You're right, what was I talking about?? Lol. I'm going back & forth between this forum and a book, I think I saw your 'To' as a 'Too' and...who knows lol.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I hope my comment about a comedy show didn't sound rude. I guess I always remember this one line from a Dale Carnegie book I read where he questioned whether or not it would even be favorable to take certain delusional people out of their delusions if they were much happier inside of them. Of course I don't agree with that but it does make me think, maybe IF they are very happy it's not really a heartbreaking problem?? My 1st reaction is always 'Are they happy?' IDK, it was interesting food for thought.

Perfectly normal people walk around with delusions all the time: If I don't wear my lucky hat then my team will lose; the cuckold who believes his wife faithful; mothers that believe their children to be intelligent or beautiful, etc. There are personality types like Schizoid or Schizotypal that are built around delusions.

Only when it becomes problematic to the individual - to his person, interests or reputation, ie. be intersubjectively and socially unacceptable, does Psychiatry and Psychology intervene. Where and when this line is drawn is difficult though.

In this specific case, it was very disruptive. Islamic Jesus is quite a violent character in their end-times narrative (not that our Revelation is very peaceful), so they broke property and acted aggresively. I didn't consider your comments out of place though; for if we walk on eggshells about everything then nothing would ever be discussed and most good comedy never exist in the first place.

 

[Dirk1540]

I do get sloppy with my words sometimes, I will say delusional as if to say insane sometimes. Part of my confusion about thinking that you corrected my text was the thought that I used the word delusional by mistake ha.

 

[cloudyday2]

You're not wrong, but to elaborate:

There are hallucinations, which are incorrect perceptions that appear as if true data from the senses. Nothing is really there.
There are illusions, which are misinterpretations of real data of the senses.
There are delusions, which is a fixed false belief, which may be related to illusions or hallucinations, but might not be.

I used to work in a Psychiatric institution and we had a pair of muslim brothers. One believed he was the second coming of Jesus, and his brother agreed that he was. Both shared the same delusion that one of them was Jesus.

Supposedly the drug BZ caused a couple of test subjects to hallucinate a tennis game together ( BZ - Wikipedia ). I imagine the mechanism is suggestibility. One person sees the other person's reactions to a hallucination and experiences a compatible hallucination - sort of like hypnotic suggestion?

 

[cloudyday2]

I do get sloppy with my words sometimes, I will say delusional as if to say insane sometimes. Part of my confusion about thinking that you corrected my text was the thought that I used the word delusional by mistake ha.

Delusions and hallucinations and illusions seem to have a feedback relationship. If I hallucinate something weird, then I look for some explanation and that becomes a delusional belief. The delusional belief might cause emotionalism that makes me perceive real stimuli in a distorted way (illusion).

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SkyWriting]

I didn't mention in the OP the possibility that Jesus was healing through hypnotic suggestion and the placebo effect. When Jesus went to His hometown where faith was weaker, He was not able to heal people. This suggests something like hypnosis or the placebo effect IMO.

I agree with your point that the hypothesis should cover all the miracles. I think hypnosis, hallucinations, delusions, quirks of nature, etc. can explain everything. IDK

God / Jesus can produce any result He wants to produce in two forms. It happened in "God Space" where Jesus turned water into wine, for example, or it can happen in real time where one prays for results and God instantly responds with His answer-already-in-progress, becasue He heard your prayer from the beginning of time.

I cover this second type here: !00% Answered Prayers - Steps 1, 2, & 3

 

[cloudyday2]

What if ultrasounds were taken for four weeks and no change as to babies still not yet born, till the 5th week? At the start of that week-no change. But at the end of the week -healed, even one baby's heart.

Can post a video here if you want to watch it. It is about an hour with commercial breaks, but you can skip to about 19 minutes if you want to find the part as to talking about the miracle from God Almighty that took place.

That sounds interesting, but I wonder if these things can happen naturally under rare circumstances? There is no reason God's miracles must be impossible scientifically. They only need to be unlikely and timed to create the desired guidance or inspiration in the observer. If a person recovered from apparent death after prayer from St. Paul, that was a miracle even though it wasn't necessarily medically impossible. The miracle inspired the new Christians, and that was God's goal.

 

[cloudyday2]

Confirmation bias is an issue when the miracle is in the meaning rather than the method. As the C.S. Lewis essay linked by @Quid est Veritas? explained, the confirmation bias can go in either direction - skepticism or credulousness. (I haven't read the entire essay yet, but that is what I got from it so far.)

I wonder if statistics could detect miracles that are simply improbable rather than impossible?

 

[Halbhh]

God / Jesus can produce any result He wants to produce in two forms. It happened in "God Space" where Jesus turned water into wine, for example, or it can happen in real time where one prays for results and God instantly responds with His answer-already-in-progress, becasue He heard your prayer from the beginning of time.

I cover this second type here: !00% Answered Prayers - Steps 1, 2, & 3

It's good to be able to acknowledge that many believers think God allowing us real choices means that He has not fixed that our choices, like praying, are already determined ahead of time. This is good to be able to acknowledge because this issue of predetermination can trip up and destroy faith for some, so it's not trivial....

So we should say: "But, some/many believers think God truly has not determined our choices or actions at all, and therefore by His own design chooses not to already know them ahead of time, but instead -- that God can see the direction we are going in, thus where we will go if we do not change direction, knows where that path will lead.... He has given us a true ability to choose and change direction. Thus we are not predetermined like a robot following a program.
AND He can and will accomplish His purposes even despite whatever unpredictable sudden change in direction we do. In this viewpoint that many believers have, God will indeed accomplish plans He has decided upon, when He chooses to do so, and thus knows the ultimate big picture things that will indeed happen by His plan. So there are both predetermined things and things left to us to choose individually, both.