My Goliath Challenge

[AV1611VET]

So, let me make sure I have this correct, you think that everytime someone estimates something by eye they are performing a scientific evaluation. Is that right?

Back then, yes.

Today, they have computers to make (and perpetuate) their mistakes for them.

 

[razeontherock]

The "science" that all those cowardly "scientists" used here is a simple observation/evaluation scheme: "Hm, if we go against this brute in close combat, we don't stand a chance." Even big bad King Saul wasn't described as a giant like this one.

David used a different approach, based on the same observations, using a slightly different evaluation: "If I can't kill him up close, I'll kill him from afar."


What, you don't understand such an easy concept? Challenges amongst single fighters were quite common, and followed some rules of honour. Presenting a brute as Goliath is described to have been is a little... unsporting. Yet it is within the rules: the Israelites were free to chose a champion of their own.

Consider it as a duel. You have challenged your opponent to a duel with swords. Now if you know that you are an excellent swordsman and he cannot match you, this might be considered unfair. But if he comes to the field with a pistol and shoots you... he is cheating.

You are only missing, approximately every point the story makes.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

You are only missing, approximately every point the story makes.

I'm all ears. What's the point?

 

[razeontherock]

There are several. It is a type of Salvation, on many levels. The most basic being, Faith vs sight. Which is also AV's point of the thread

 

[Orogeny]

Longer than it would take a 9'6" person to close the distance.

Right. Because Yao Ming gets down the court waaaay faster than Chris Paul.

Olympic track athletes: Are they typically over 7 feet?

Have you ever seen anybody much larger than 7 feet run? It ain't pretty.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't think your comparisons are particularly valid

 

[Orogeny]

I don't think you have any reason to think that except that you'd like the story to work the way you think it should, not the way it probably did.

 

[razeontherock]

I do. In the story, Goliath was not some one-off freak of society that we could compare to our times, but one of a sub-culture of giants. What made him the champion was not stature, but ferocity. This includes speed, agility, aggressiveness, and the ability to run is well within that.

 

[Assyrian]

Thanks! I always wondered what kind of scale we were talking about here. I highly doubt David could outrun Goliath ...

With all that armour?
1Sam 17:5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze.
6 And he had bronze armor on his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders.
7 The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron. And his shield-bearer went before him.
Goliath could either run with all that armour and weaponry or chose to throw the spear and javelin before trying to pursue David, still encumbered with his armour. If he kept the spear an javelin, it just added to the weight he had to run with, if he threw them, David was pretty good at dodging and it gave him time to get off a couple of shots.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I do. In the story, Goliath was not some one-off freak of society that we could compare to our times, but one of a sub-culture of giants. What made him the champion was not stature, but ferocity. This includes speed, agility, aggressiveness, and the ability to run is well within that.

This is a baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is remotely true.

 

[Cromulent]

This is a baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is remotely true.

Indeed. It could be that Goliath was selected as champion for his pure intimidation factor. Until David came along, it seemed to have been working quite nicely!

 

[Split Rock]

Back then, yes.

Today, they have computers to make (and perpetuate) their mistakes for them.

Are you referring to creationists?

 

[razeontherock]

This is a baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is remotely true.

Per the story, I do

 

[razeontherock]

With all that armour?
1Sam 17:5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze.
6 And he had bronze armor on his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders.
7 The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron. And his shield-bearer went before him.
Goliath could either run with all that armour and weaponry or chose to throw the spear and javelin before trying to pursue David, still encumbered with his armour. If he kept the spear an javelin, it just added to the weight he had to run with, if he threw them, David was pretty good at dodging and it gave him time to get off a couple of shots.

To re-cap:

scenario A: Goliath throws all his weapons at David, which David dodges because Gath's champion is stupid, throwing them from so far away he has no chance to connect. Then David has no chance to use his sling, because Goliath is not so weighed down anymore and still charging, and David has already closed the distance.

scenario B: the champion is not so stupid, and meets David head-on, using his weapons the way they're intended to be used. David fires at an ideal distance; close enough to hit the target while maintaining a safe berth. If he misses, there is roughly a split-second before Goliath is at ideal range, and David might dodge one thrown weapon but not two. He has no chance to use his sling again because now Goliath is breathing down his neck, and not so weighed down anymore.

Nope, you'll need to look deeper into the story to see why David had 5 stones.

 

[pgp_protector]

I do. In the story, Goliath was not some one-off freak of society that we could compare to our times, but one of a sub-culture of giants. What made him the champion was not stature, but ferocity. This includes speed, agility, aggressiveness, and the ability to run is well within that.

This is a baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is remotely true.

Per the story, I do

Where ? I'm not seeing anything about Goliaths Speed, Agility, ability to run in it.
In fact Goliath had to have help carrying all his equipment.



1 Samuel 17

1 Now the Philistines gathered their forces for war and assembled at Sokoh in Judah. They pitched camp at Ephes Dammim, between Sokoh and Azekah. 2 Saul and the Israelites assembled and camped in the Valley of Elah and drew up their battle line to meet the Philistines. 3 The Philistines occupied one hill and the Israelites another, with the valley between them.
4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.[a] 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels; 6 on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. 7 His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels.[c] His shield bearer went ahead of him.

8 Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, “Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not the servants of Saul? Choose a man and have him come down to me. 9 If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects; but if I overcome him and kill him, you will become our subjects and serve us.” 10 Then the Philistine said, “This day I defy the armies of Israel! Give me a man and let us fight each other.” 11 On hearing the Philistine’s words, Saul and all the Israelites were dismayed and terrified.

12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite named Jesse, who was from Bethlehem in Judah. Jesse had eight sons, and in Saul’s time he was very old. 13 Jesse’s three oldest sons had followed Saul to the war: The firstborn was Eliab; the second, Abinadab; and the third, Shammah. 14 David was the youngest. The three oldest followed Saul, 15 but David went back and forth from Saul to tend his father’s sheep at Bethlehem.

16 For forty days the Philistine came forward every morning and evening and took his stand.

17 Now Jesse said to his son David, “Take this ephah[d] of roasted grain and these ten loaves of bread for your brothers and hurry to their camp. 18 Take along these ten cheeses to the commander of their unit. See how your brothers are and bring back some assurance[e] from them. 19 They are with Saul and all the men of Israel in the Valley of Elah, fighting against the Philistines.”

20 Early in the morning David left the flock in the care of a shepherd, loaded up and set out, as Jesse had directed. He reached the camp as the army was going out to its battle positions, shouting the war cry. 21 Israel and the Philistines were drawing up their lines facing each other. 22 David left his things with the keeper of supplies, ran to the battle lines and asked his brothers how they were. 23 As he was talking with them, Goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual defiance, and David heard it. 24 Whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear.

25 Now the Israelites had been saying, “Do you see how this man keeps coming out? He comes out to defy Israel. The king will give great wealth to the man who kills him. He will also give him his daughter in marriage and will exempt his family from taxes in Israel.”

26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

27 They repeated to him what they had been saying and told him, “This is what will be done for the man who kills him.”

28 When Eliab, David’s oldest brother, heard him speaking with the men, he burned with anger at him and asked, “Why have you come down here? And with whom did you leave those few sheep in the wilderness? I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle.”

29 “Now what have I done?” said David. “Can’t I even speak?” 30 He then turned away to someone else and brought up the same matter, and the men answered him as before. 31 What David said was overheard and reported to Saul, and Saul sent for him.

32 David said to Saul, “Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine; your servant will go and fight him.”

33 Saul replied, “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”

34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The LORD who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.”

Saul said to David, “Go, and the LORD be with you.”

38 Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. 39 David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.

“I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. 40 Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.

41 Meanwhile, the Philistine, with his shield bearer in front of him, kept coming closer to David. 42 He looked David over and saw that he was little more than a boy, glowing with health and handsome, and he despised him. 43 He said to David, “Am I a dog, that you come at me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. 44 “Come here,” he said, “and I’ll give your flesh to the birds and the wild animals!”

45 David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the LORD will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. 47 All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves; for the battle is the LORD’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”

48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.

50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.

51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.

When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. 52 Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath[f] and to the gates of Ekron. Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim road to Gath and Ekron. 53 When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp.

54 David took the Philistine’s head and brought it to Jerusalem; he put the Philistine’s weapons in his own tent.

55 As Saul watched David going out to meet the Philistine, he said to Abner, commander of the army, “Abner, whose son is that young man?”

Abner replied, “As surely as you live, Your Majesty, I don’t know.”

56 The king said, “Find out whose son this young man is.”

57 As soon as David returned from killing the Philistine, Abner took him and brought him before Saul, with David still holding the Philistine’s head.

58 “Whose son are you, young man?” Saul asked him.

David said, “I am the son of your servant Jesse of Bethlehem.”

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Per the story, I do

Ok, where?

 

[Assyrian]

To re-cap:

scenario A: Goliath throws all his weapons at David, which David dodges because Gath's champion is stupid, throwing them from so far away he has no chance to connect.

1Sam 18:11 And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.
David was pretty good at dodging.

Then David has no chance to use his sling, because Goliath is not so weighed down anymore and still charging, and David has already closed the distance.

scenario B: the champion is not so stupid, and meets David head-on, using his weapons the way they're intended to be used. David fires at an ideal distance; close enough to hit the target while maintaining a safe berth. If he misses, there is roughly a split-second before Goliath is at ideal range, and David might dodge one thrown weapon but not two.

...But David evaded him twice.

He has no chance to use his sling again because now Goliath is breathing down his neck, and not so weighed down anymore.

Nope, you'll need to look deeper into the story to see why David had 5 stones.

But 'not so weighed down' you mean he only had the five thousand shekel coat of mail, bronze helmet and bronze leg armour. Goliath was a lumbering tank, easily evaded an out ran by a nimble unarmoured David. Goliath may have been a feared warrior in battle, but there is nothing to suggest he was fast.

Goliath had the spear in his hand, so he could throw that when David missed with his first shot. The javelin is slung between Goliath's shoulders so David has time for another shot before Goliath can throw that. Once he dodges the javelin, all Goliath has are close range weapons and an awful lot of armour slowing him down. David just has to get to the hillside and the rocky ground before he has all the advantages of terrain, speed and a long range weapon.

 

[razeontherock]

Where ? I'm not seeing anything about Goliaths Speed, Agility, ability to run in it.
In fact Goliath had to have help carrying all his equipment.

1. Goliath had help; somebody in front of him to defend him, and carry additional weapons. (And Freodin said David broke the rules? )

2. You're suggesting Goliath was Gath's champion because he was slow, and didn't know how to fight? Mmmm, could be, but I ain't buying it. When you understand the rules of engagement your suggestion becomes preposterous.

3. You're trying to get context out of 1 chapter, and the Bible's *a bit* more complex than that. Goliath's society was giants, and his family was giants. In the story, anyway. This is not comparable to modern day freaks who are clumsy. If someone else were more agile and able to fight an Israelite, that's who would've been their "champion." There was too much at stake to fool around.

You (collectively) are ignoring the fact that the point of the story is NOT a sling; there were 700 experts with a sling, who were far more competent to this task than David.

 

[pgp_protector]

1. Goliath had help; somebody in front of him to defend him, and carry additional weapons. (And Freodin said David broke the rules? )

Congrats, you can rephrase what I posted and what's in the story.

2. You're suggesting Goliath was Gath's champion because he was slow, and didn't know how to fight? Mmmm, could be, but I ain't buying it. When you understand the rules of engagement your suggestion becomes preposterous.

No I'm not.

3. You're trying to get context out of 1 chapter, and the Bible's *a bit* more complex than that. Goliath's society was giants, and his family was giants. In the story, anyway. This is not comparable to modern day freaks who are clumsy. If someone else were more agile and able to fight an Israelite, that's who would've been their "champion." There was too much at stake to fool around.

You (collectively) are ignoring the fact that the point of the story is NOT a sling; there were 700 experts with a sling, who were far more competent to this task than David.

Didn't you state

I do. In the story, Goliath was not some one-off freak of society that we could compare to our times, but one of a sub-culture of giants. What made him the champion was not stature, but ferocity. This includes speed, agility, aggressiveness, and the ability to run is well within that.

This is a baseless assertion. You have no evidence that this is remotely true.

Per the story, I do

So show where in the Story it is, or dodge again.

 

[razeontherock]

David was pretty good at dodging.

As is any fit adolescent, but Saul was not charging him.

But 'not so weighed down' you mean he only had the five thousand shekel coat of mail, bronze helmet and bronze leg armour. Goliath was a lumbering tank, easily evaded an out ran by a nimble unarmoured David.

Now you have to explain why none of the 700 Israeli experts with a sling took Goliath on. Your story just doesn't add up. The point is NOT that Gath sent "a lumbering tank" into battle, but that Goliath was strong enough to actually fight in his armor. (This is what it means David hadn't "proved" Saul's armor)

Goliath may have been a feared warrior in battle, but there is nothing to suggest he was fast.

There is everything to know that Goliath was faster than any other warrior Gath had. Or was it all of Philistine? And that he was more aggressive, and ferocious than anyone else they had. These are the properties that win, which is how one becomes a champion. These are synonymous with being intimidating, too!

The javelin is slung between Goliath's shoulders so David has time for another shot before Goliath can throw that.

Disagreed. I have used a sling, and you have not. If you want to say David would run from Goliath all day like a chicken, through the brush and up the hills, and eventually gain enough distance to get another shot off? We see the story illustrate that is not what David was thinking about ...