My Goliath Challenge

[razeontherock]

Goliath was most likely the only one with Gigantism.

The story doesn't read as the modern occurrence you cite, but as Nephilim. He, his brothers, and at least many (if not most) of the Philistines.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

The story doesn't read as the modern occurrence you cite, but as Nephilim. He, his brothers, and at least many (if not most) of the Philistines.

One we have real examples of, the oher only exists in G6.

 

[pgp_protector]

<staff edit > . And the guy on a tennis court with a sling in your video? He's not approaching the speed where you gain control, as you can clearly see by his horrible aim. You need to do a minimum of 3 full revolutions, before release. It takes longer than that to shoot.

No it might take YOU Longer than that to shoot.
I watched about a dozen (including people hitting targets) , most only have one revolution.

Maybe you do use a sling, and you need 3 revolutions, but you aren't everyone.

 

[razeontherock]

One we have real examples of, the oher only exists in G6.

"G6" says there were Nephilim after the flood. Looking for real examples from a story is pretty silly

 

[sandwiches]

< staff edit >

< staff edit > . Biblical and Jewish scholars have always described the battle of David and Goliath as the victory of the small, weak, light, and nimble over the large, strong, heavy, and lumbering.

 

[Orogeny]

< staff edit > . And the guy on a tennis court with a sling in your video? He's not approaching the speed where you gain control, as you can clearly see by his horrible aim. You need to do a minimum of 3 full revolutions, before release. It takes longer than that to shoot.

A skillful throw requires just one rapid rotation. Some slingers will rotate the sling slowly once or twice to seat the projectile in the cradle.

How to Use a Sling - YouTube

Ok, so there are two examples of EVIDENCE supporting my position. You have posted none. Still, if you're unhappy with this evidence, you may like this better:

The bow, crossbow and firearm, if operated correctly, will produce the same effect the weapon had hundreds of years ago. However, the sling requires tremendous skill, and only people who have had extensive training can claim to match the ability of ancient slingers. Existing literature quotes ranges as little as 150m to as much as 500m (Demmin, 1964; Hogg, 1968; Korfmann, 1973; Wise, 1976; Connolly, 1981; Ferrill, 1985; Richardson, 1998b). Larry Bray set the Guinness World Record for a stone cast with a sling in 1981, achieving an impressive range of 437m (Norris, 1985). In retrospect, Mr. Bray believes he could have surpassed 600m mark with a better sling and lead projectiles (Bray, Personal Communication, March 21st, 2004). Presumably, professional slingers of antiquity who trained from childhood and relied on the weapon in battle could achieve even greater distances, perhaps approaching 700m.

Note the copious references provided within this citation. I think it demonstrates quite nicely that unless you've been slinging daily since childhood, you probably haven't the expertise necessary to make a realistic comparison between yourself and slingers of old.

Now then. Care to continue your argument from authority < staff edit >

 

[razeontherock]

it demonstrates quite nicely that unless you've been slinging daily since childhood, you probably haven't the expertise necessary to make a realistic comparison between yourself and slingers of old.

You prove my point. David was less competent than the experts in the army. And the guy in the video sux, so what he says is no evidence at all

 

[razeontherock]

This actually isn't true. Biblical and Jewish scholars have always described the battle of David and Goliath as the victory of the small, weak, light, and nimble over the large, strong, heavy, and lumbering.

You're making up the part about light and nimble vs heavy and lumbering. The rest fits.

 

[razeontherock]

You're going to re-create the event of the story, based on what? Treating it this way rather misses the point ...

 

[razeontherock]

Or understand it a little closer to the way the original audience did.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Or understand it a little closer to the way the original audience did.

So prove you understand it better than anyone else, < staff edit > .

 

[sandwiches]

You're making up the part about light and nimble vs heavy and lumbering. The rest fits.

Nope. Scholars through hermeneutics. I don't need to make things up. Slow and lumbering. I'm not sure where you got quick and agile when all scholarly papers on David and Goliath agree with me.

 

[Assyrian]

Exactly! And why wasn't David terrified? Faith vs sight.

There is no "vs" there, David had faith, he also used his sight and a very lethal weapon.

You bet - Goliath had FOUR BROTHERS

And they were at the battle? There is no mention of them there. Goliath's shield bearer would be a much more immediate threat.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

You prove my point. David was less competent than the experts in the army. And the guy in the video sux, so what he says is no evidence at all

No, actually, I think he was saying that David (as a shepherd who had demonstrated ability with a sling) would have been a better slinger than most people alive today. The person in the video probably couldn't have used a sling as well as someone at that point in time, but the ability of an average person today to use a sling is likely no reflection of the ability of someone who had years worth of practice and who had already proven their ability by killing dangerous animals. Using a sling without that experience is not indicative of its ability or performance. It's almost certain that David got four extra stones in case he needed them, as there really is no other logical reason for this, and because he would probably have been able to use at least one of them facing an opponent with armor that weighed roughly one hundred pounds (Goliath may have actually been dressed very impractically for the conflict, regardless of his size).

< staff edit >

< staff edit >

You've claimed that Goliath was enormously fast as well as huge. FrenchyBearpaw has argued that he probably wasn't. I feel like his interpretation is more likely hermenuetically. Goliath's armor weighed over one hundred pounds. I tend to lean toward the interpretation that Goliath was not a nephilim or suffering from gigantism since history suggests that the text is probably best rendered with a lower figure for Goliath's height (around 6'7, a figure found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the writings of Josephus, which both predate the 9'9 figure from the Masoretic text). The Phillistines were Hellenes, meaning that they were members of a "heroic" culture. Goliath could have been wearing impractical armor into battle for no reason other than wanting to look like Achilles or Diomedes, and he may have actually been suffering from delusions that he was a demigod if he was significantly larger than everyone else around him, particularly if he was close to ten feet.

Understanding the context of the Bible also requires you to understand the concept of a trial by combat. It's actually a very Hellenic idea, which in my opinion gives credit to the historical value of the text. A trial by combat was seen as a type of oracle by the Hellenes, who would have likely seen the battle as a battle not between David and Goliath, but between their gods and the God of the Israelites. The Israelites probably wouldn't have lacked awareness of this, and those reading the text would have understood that. The Israelites weren't just failing to trust in their ability to win, they were failing to trust in the ability of their God to win. David trusted in God, and was granted victory. In my view that's the entire point, not that the Israelites were somehow being scientific in estimating that Goliath would win. Their failure to believe that they could win was a failure, not a good thing. It was based on a lack of trust in God, not just logic.

 

[razeontherock]

No, actually, I think he was saying that David (as a shepherd who had demonstrated ability with a sling) would have been a better slinger than most people alive today. years worth of practice and who had already proven their ability by killing dangerous animals.

Look, this is simple. By David's own account, he did not kill the lion and the bear with a sling. And he didn't have the experience with a sling that the experts in the army did. Simple.

< staff edit >
< staff edit >

You've claimed that Goliath was enormously fast as well as huge.

< staff edit > No, I've said Goliath was the best person they had to defeat any Israelite, based on the text. Others have posited he had giantism, and was for all practical purposes in warfare, crippled. This is false, per the story.

The Israelites weren't just failing to trust in their ability to win, they were failing to trust in the ability of their God to win. David trusted in God, and was granted victory. In my view that's the entire point, not that the Israelites were somehow being scientific in estimating that Goliath would win. Their failure to believe that they could win was a failure, not a good thing. It was based on a lack of trust in God, not just logic.

Finally something with some sense! This is still what the Bible refers to as "Faith vs sight," and is in line with the OP's point. This is very simple, and it has ample application today. Every knowable (common root word with "science") reason, said David was a fool to engage. Any divergence from this fact, misses the point.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I do. In the story, Goliath was not some one-off freak of society that we could compare to our times, but one of a sub-culture of giants. What made him the champion was not stature, but ferocity. This includes speed, agility, aggressiveness, and the ability to run is well within that.

Emphasis mine.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

No, I've said Goliath was the best person they had to defeat any Israelite, based on the text. Others have posited he had giantism, and was for all practical purposes in warfare, crippled. This is false, per the story.

Will the real raze stand up please.

 

[pgp_protector]

Look, this is simple. By David's own account, he did not kill the lion and the bear with a sling. And he didn't have the experience with a sling that the experts in the army did. Simple.



< staff edit >

< staff edit > No, I've said Goliath was the best person they had to defeat any Israelite, based on the text. Others have posited he had giantism, and was for all practical purposes in warfare, crippled. This is false, per the story.



Finally something with some sense! This is still what the Bible refers to as "Faith vs sight," and is in line with the OP's point. This is very simple, and it has ample application today. Every knowable (common root word with "science") reason, said David was a fool to engage. Any divergence from this fact, misses the point.

Using simple reading I can see that David Is saying he killed the Lion & Bear, and that he's going to kill Goliath in the same manner.
Given that he killed Goliath with a Sling we can say that he killed the lion & bear with a sling.


34 But David said to Saul, &#8220;Your servant used to keep his father&#8217;s sheep, and when a lion or a bear came and took a lamb out of the flock, 35 I went out after it and struck it, and delivered the lamb from its mouth; and when it arose against me, I caught it by its beard, and struck and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both lion and bear; and this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, seeing he has defied the armies of the living God.&#8221;

 

[razeontherock]

Using simple reading I can see that David Is saying he killed the Lion & Bear, and that he's going to kill Goliath in the same manner.
Given that he killed Goliath with a Sling we can say that he killed the lion & bear with a sling.


34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep his father’s sheep, and when a lion or a bear came and took a lamb out of the flock, 35 I went out after it and struck it, and delivered the lamb from its mouth; and when it arose against me, I caught it by its beard, and struck and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both lion and bear; and this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, seeing he has defied the armies of the living God.”

Try reading that again ...

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Алекс Хоннолд в Йосимити - YouTube