My Goliath Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Yep! So that draws your comment full circle, that David "told science to take a hike." any takers? (As I ready my sling )

-- you da man!

 

[Split Rock]

We recently had a good discussion about this, and archaeologists have found stashes of stones used for slings that were about the size of billiard balls, up to tennis ball size. That could weight quite a bit over a pound, and the force they would carry would indeed be serious! (I've owned a sling)

You have failed to address AV's post - why didn't anyone in the whole Israeli army face Goliath? Surely they had slings, and were much more experienced with them than young David ...

Its a story guys. A story. Did it actually happen? Who knows. Whether it is an historical account or not is irrelevant to the purpose of the authors. This is one thing you guys just don't get.

 

[razeontherock]

Kindly speak for yourself!

In the context of the story - why didn't anyone else in the Israeli army fight Goliath?

 

[pgp_protector]

Kindly speak for yourself!

In the context of the story - why didn't anyone else in the Israeli army fight Goliath?

Politics.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

You have failed to address AV's post - why didn't anyone in the whole Israeli army face Goliath? Surely they had slings, and were much more experienced with them than young David ...

Because they were scared out of their minds due to the nine foot tall "gentleman" with lots of armor and a spear.

That's not a very science-y observation. It's more of an "I don't want to die" type of observation, backed up by nothing but terror and more terror. I'm not denying the moral you can draw from the event, which is the importance of trusting in God and His ability to overcome the trails and tribulations of life, whatever those may be. I wanted to clarify the whole "slingshot" thing. David may have been less armored and less skilled than other Israelites, but he wasn't armed with the type of thing that Dennis the Menace carried around.

Also, the very fact that a sling is a weapon proves by its very nature that it isn't physically impossible to incapacitate (or often kill) someone with one, even if they are substantially larger than an average human being. Science did not "take a hike". There are miracles in the Bible where the laws of physics are overridden to demonstrate God's power (ex., walking on water), but killing or incapacitating someone with a sling is squarely within the realm of normal physical possibility.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, it has not direct correlation to the scientific community and peer review, but the people in the business of knowing that it would be a bad idea to square off with the champion of Gath. David told the status quo, with all their accumulated wisdom and experience, to take a hike.

Faith vs sight

 

[Assyrian]

Kindly speak for yourself!

In the context of the story - why didn't anyone else in the Israeli army fight Goliath?

AV answered you question

I have a feeling they won't address the point, either.

Judges 20:16 Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.

The fact is, they were rendered useless as warriors when they saw the size and might of this guy;

Good answer AV. Your reply goes downhill in the second part of the sentence. A pity because you were doing so well.

and David showed up and used his faith in the LORD to override reality and get the job done.

He didn't use his faith in God to override reality, his faith in God overrode his fear. David trusted God to use him, to use his experience and skill, his stone age technology and all the stone age physics behind it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, it has not direct correlation to the scientific community and peer review, but the people in the business of knowing that it would be a bad idea to square off with the champion of Gath. David told the status quo, with all their accumulated wisdom and experience, to take a hike.

Faith vs sight

The Philistines were trying to give the Israelites a lesson in fight-or-flight, and Dave showed up and gave them a lesson on how survival-of-the-fittest doesn't work when God is in the equation.

1 Samuel 17:37 David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee.
1 Samuel 17:38 And Saul armed David with his armour, and he put an helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail.
1 Samuel 17:39 And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.

Notice here that Saul's armor didn't fit David, so he didn't use any armor.

-- Survival of the fittest, indeed!

 

[Freodin]

Well, it has not direct correlation to the scientific community and peer review, but the people in the business of knowing that it would be a bad idea to square off with the champion of Gath. David told the status quo, with all their accumulated wisdom and experience, to take a hike.

Faith vs sight

No, just different sight. Basically, he cheated. Single combat would have indeed meant to "square off" with the other fighter, as equals. The Israelites knew that they had no equal fighter... and so did the Philistines. Basically, they cheated first, but within the rules of the game.

But David went by the letter of the rules, not by the spirit.

Hey, I can see now why he is considered such a great hero by the chief literalists here!

 

[AV1611VET]

He didn't use his faith in God to override reality, his faith in God overrode his fear. David trusted God to use him, to use his experience and skill, his stone age technology and all the stone age physics behind it.

What experience and skill? he was a shepherd boy.

Yes, I believe it was God Who subdued Goliath, then He stepped back and let David do the rest; which is the point of this thread.

The Israelites were trembling at this empirical monolith, whereas David couldn't have cared less.

Incidentally, you do know he took 5 stones from the brook, don't you?

1 Samuel 17:40 And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.

There was a reason for that.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Israelites knew that they had no equal fighter...

Yes, they did have an equal fighter -- their king, Saul.

1 Samuel 9:2 And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.

Only he walked by sight, not by faith; so he was cowering behind his men at the time.

 

[Assyrian]

What experience and skill? he was a shepherd boy.

Lions and tiger and bears.

Yes, I believe it was God Who subdued Goliath, then He stepped back and let David do the rest; which is the point of this thread.

Yet the bible shows us it was the stone that knocked the Philistine out, and then David used Philistine metallurgy, Goliath's own sword to chop his head off. If it was all just a miracle, nothing to do with science, why even use the sling and the sword? Or were the weapons just sacramental?

The Israelites were trembling at this empirical monolith, whereas David couldn't have cared less.

If David couldn't care less about empirical science, why bring the sling and stones?

Incidentally, you do know he took 5 stones from the brook, don't you?

1 Samuel 17:40 And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.

There was a reason for that.

Yes, if he missed, or they bounced off Goliath's armour, five was all would have time for before Goliath got to him. Seemed quite practical in his faith.

 

[Freodin]

Yes, they did have an equal fighter -- their king, Saul.

1 Samuel 9:2 And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.

Only he walked by sight, not by faith; so he was cowering behind his men at the time.

If he walked by sight and still feared Goliath, that would mean he knew he wasn't a match for him. Why, even David knew he wasn't a match for Goliath in a "fair fight". Did he knew that by sight or by faith?

But David also knew - by sight, by experience, by SCIENCE!!!!!1twelve - that he could best this guy in an unfair fight.

 

[Split Rock]

Kindly speak for yourself!

I am speaking for myself... who did you think I was speaking for?

In the context of the story - why didn't anyone else in the Israeli army fight Goliath?

Because they were all afraid of Goliath. < staff edit >

 

[Belk]

Read 1 Samuel 17, then:

1. Explain how those who scientifically assessed the situation were rendered useless.

Explain how they "scientifically assessed the situation" please. Some sort of quantitative analysis? Or are you going to argue that every time someone uses past experience to try to judge a future outcome it equates to a scientific assessment?

Explain how David's science-can-take-a-hike approach was justified.

Provided you can substantiate your fist question it is obvious provided the outcome of killing Goliath.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Proof David could have defeated Goliath with a simple sling - YouTube

 

[razeontherock]

No, just different sight.

Faith IS "different sight." < staff edit > .

Basically, he cheated. Basically, they cheated first, but within the rules of the game.

He cheated, but within the rules of the game. I see. < staff edit >

Hey, I can see now why he is considered such a great hero by the chief literalists here!

< staff edit > , David IS a hero, by any Judeo-Christian standards. (Muslim, too)

 

[razeontherock]

Yes, if he missed, or they bounced off Goliath's armour, five was all would have time for before Goliath got to him. Seemed quite practical in his faith.

You've never used a sling, I see. David only had time to fire one.

 

[razeontherock]

< staff edit >
< staff edit >

Because they were all afraid of Goliath. Is it really so complicated a story for you?

Everyone in the Israeli army was afraid of Goliath including their King, who was selected only because of his size, strength, and presumably, his fighting ability. IOW, there was good reason to conclude that squaring off with Goliath was a bad idea. In this instance, good reason needed to be told to take a hike, which is the whole point of the thread.
< staff edit >

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I have a feeling they won't address the point, either.

Judges 20:16 Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.

The fact is, they were rendered useless as warriors when they saw the size and might of this guy; and David showed up and used his faith in the LORD to override reality and get the job done.

I'm planning on starting another thread later along the same line, using the twelve spies who spied out the Promised Land.

Israel's decision to go with science over faith is what cost them 40 years in the wilderness until that generation died out.

In fact, after God placed the Promised Land off-limits for the next forty years, they went ahead and tried to enter it anyway on their own, and God simply withdrew His protection and science did the rest.

They were cowards.