My Genesis 1 Bottleneck Event Challenge

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So do I, but for the record, this thread is an even tougher one: the earth's population down to just two people.

Well Adam and Eve do not conform to the bottleneck theory because it states that there was once a larger more genetically varied population of humans before the bottleneck event and the some world wide catastrophe happened which lead to only a small number of woman surviving with their men.. Since Adam and Eve where the first humans then there was no large population before then so no bottleneck..

The great flood and Noah however does fir the Bottleneck theory because He, his wife His sons and their wives survived the Flood a small group of people.. Thus we have a Bottleneck event..

I'm tired of hearing there should be evidence for a literal Genesis 1 creation; and I'm going to start calling people out on it and try to make them back it up with solid science.

Well good luck with trying to do that.. The problem is that people simply do not want to believe such things so no matter what arguments you give them they are going to cling onto their disbelief in desperation..

 

[sfs]

Such as finding what?

Such as finding some number of genetic variants at high frequency (whatever variants were carried by Adam and Eve), a small number of variants at very low frequency (the result of new mutations), and almost nothing in between. Instead, we see lots and lots of variants with a frequency distribution that falls off almost exactly as 1/f. That happens to be the frequency distribution that expect to find for a population that's been at the same size for a very long time. (In the case of humans, for ~50,000 generations or more.)

You can find more detailed explanations and the results of simulations here, where I was contrasting observed data with what's see from a bottleneck 2000 generations ago. (I post there as glipsnort.)

 

[sfs]

Well good luck with trying to do that..

Have you tried to do that? For example, have you read Dennis Venema's extensive series of blog posts at BioLogos on why human genetics is incompatible with a recent origin from a single couple?

 

[sfs]

The problem is that people simply do not want to believe such things so no matter what arguments you give them they are going to cling onto their disbelief in desperation..

Since you clearly don't even know what the arguments are yet, isn't impugning the motives of those who disagree with you a bit premature?

 

[AV1611VET]

Such as finding some number of genetic variants at high frequency (whatever variants were carried by Adam and Eve), a small number of variants at very low frequency (the result of new mutations), and almost nothing in between. Instead, we see lots and lots of variants with a frequency distribution that falls off almost exactly as 1/f.

It's over my head, but it sounds like you're pushing uniformitarianism to me, as well as moving the decimal point to accommodate your belief.

Which, of course, keeps you employed.

But I can't see how ... even by invoking uniformitarianism and deep time ... anyone can assume what Adam's genetic makeup should consist of, seeing as how God blessed him and told him to replenish the earth.

 

[Aman777]

The great flood and Noah however does fir the Bottleneck theory because He, his wife His sons and their wives survived the Flood a small group of people.. Thus we have a Bottleneck event..

Noah was married and so were his children. This means that there were NO Humans (descendants of Adam) for Noah's grandsons to marry. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced children with the sons of God (prehistoric people) Gen 6:4 who had been on Earth for MILLIONS of years before the Ark arrived. There were some One Million sons of God (prehistoric people) waiting to marry and produce children with Noah's Human grandsons. Amen?

 

[AV1611VET]

Have you tried to do that? For example, have you read Dennis Venema's extensive series of blog posts at BioLogos on why human genetics is incompatible with a recent origin from a single couple?

You do realize you're looking back at the Garden of Eden from a fallen perspective, do you not?

That's like trying to see the craters on the moon by looking through the wrong end of a telescope.

 

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Since you clearly don't even know what the arguments are yet, isn't impugning the motives of those who disagree with you a bit premature?

Well i should have inserted a qualifier and stated the ""vast majority"" or ""most"" .. I have been involved in online religious forums for about 17 years and i can only talk from my many personal experiences.. And it is my experience that if a person does not want to believe God they will not be swayed by any argument..

So yes i have tried to use arguments and debating points to make a person come to believe God and be saved.. But i came to learn that the only people those points have any effect on are people who are already on the Path to salvation through the LORD Jesus Christ.. Giving the truth to a person like that is like giving warm milk to a hungry baby.. it's so easy... But with those dedicated anti-christs you can bang your head against their brick wall for months and it will have absolutely no effect..

 

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Noah was married and so were his children. This means that there were NO Humans (descendants of Adam) for Noah's grandsons to marry. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced children with the sons of God (prehistoric people) Gen 6:4 who had been on Earth for MILLIONS of years before the Ark arrived. There were some One Million sons of God (prehistoric people) waiting to marry and produce children with Noah's Human grandsons. Amen?

They married their cousins.. The 8 couples had kids and they married their cousins..

sons of God where the fallen Angels.. They where not prehistoric peoples..

 

[sfs]

It's over my head

Fair enough. Not everyone needs to understand everything.

but it sounds like you're pushing uniformitarianism to me, as well as moving the decimal point to accommodate your belief.

Not fair. If it's over your head, then you are not in a position to decide what I'm doing. If you're fit to judge whether I'm "moving the decimal point" to accommodate my belief, then you have to be able to deal with the argument. Which is it?

 

[sfs]

You do realize you're looking back at the Garden of Eden from a fallen perspective, do you not?

Yeah. What does that have to do with it?

 

[sfs]

They married their cousins.. The 8 couples had kids and they married their cousins..

Which does nothing to explain why human genetics doesn't look anything like it would it if we recently came from a single couple.

 

[sfs]

I'm going to start calling people out on it and try to make them back it up with solid science.

So your plan is to make people back up their beliefs with solid science, which you will then ignore?

 

[Adstar]

Which does nothing to explain why human genetics doesn't look anything like it would it if we recently came from a single couple.

I was not the one talking about Adam and Eve..... I am talking about Noah and His family.....

And there is not much genetic diversity in the human race.. We are all closely related as far as scientists are concerned..

 

[sfs]

I was not the one talking about Adam and Eve..... I am talking about Noah and His family.....

We also don't look like we came from Noah and his family.

And there is not much genetic diversity in the human race.. We are all closely related as far as scientists are concerned..

Sure. We're as closely related as one would expect for a species that's had a population of roughly ten thousand for the last half million years.

 

[Aman777]

They married their cousins.. The 8 couples had kids and they married their cousins..

sons of God where the fallen Angels.. They where not prehistoric peoples..

1. Angels are in chains since they left their first estate and left their own habitation, which is in Heaven, which NO flesh can enter. 1Co 15:50
2. The sons of God (prehistoric people) were made of flesh. Gen 6:3 They had their origin in water on the 5th Day Gen 1:21 which was 3.8 Billion years ago in man's time. The last universal common ancestor lived then. Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things
3. Angels don't marry which means they don't have sex. Mat 22:30
4. Prehistoric people were made of flesh and bones and have left their remains all over our Earth from Millions of years BEFORE the Ark arrived 11k years ago.
5. In order to claim Scriptural support for the ideas of "cousins" one MUST "add to" which is actually written. Rev 22:18
6. This also explains WHY today's Humans have the superior intelligence of Adam, which is like God's,Gen 3:22 ...AND...the DNA of prehistoric people who were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam), but descended from the common ancestor of Apes, in total agreement with Scripture, Science and History. God Bless you

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm tired of hearing there should be evidence for a literal Genesis 1 creation; and I'm going to start calling people out on it ...

You could start with that greasy Hovind character.

 

[quatona]

Do you see a bottleneck event in Genesis 1?

I don´t even see a guitar there, to begin with.

 

[juvenissun]

If Genesis 1 were literally true, our genetics would look very different. I don't see any reason that we would be suffering from inbreeding depression, though, since that comes from lots of accumulated deleterious recessive mutations.

Please tell, how would it be different?

 

[juvenissun]

We should genetic evidence for a rapid increase in population size.

Could that be the situation of the world before Noah?