My Finch Challenge

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL!! You really do not understand the No True Scotsman fallacy at all.

I obviously understand better than you do as I employ it and you can only respond with the usual (yawn) atheist arrow, “you don’t understand” because you, yourself, can’t explain it or correct.

I have never seen such an epic fail. Just because a Christian does not agree to your standards of what a Christian is does not mean that person is not a Christian. You might want to work on your morals a bit. That is the key to your failure.

The typical atheist response. I have yet to hear from an atheist who actually knows who is a christian by the measure Jesus uses.

And please, do not pretend that atheists do not know scripture. Most of them know it better than most Christians. In fact the beliefs of your particular sect probably get in the way of a proper understanding by you.

Since many Christians are VERY ignorant of scripture, this s likely true.

As to slavery, it was made illegal despite what the Bible says. You see for most people morals do not come from the Bible.

Wrong. It was made illegal BECAUSE of what the Bible says. But tell me where does the Bible says slavery is legal. How much do you really know it?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again, I'd like to point out that it's against forum rules to claim that any self-declared Christians are not actually Christian.

We are talking people who lived in the 19th century. Is it against rules to say people long dead we’re not christians? Is it against the rules to claim a group is not a true atheist?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Deist is a word, but it's not the correct term for the Puritan/Protestants that fled Catholic persecution in the 16th and 17th centuries. The white settlers of North America were overwhelmingly Christian.

Not to mention it all predates Darwin and the concept of evolution by about 200 years.

Talking Jefferson who lived considerably later and was instrumental in writing foundational documents. The pilgrims didn’t establish the nation. Wasn’t their aim.

 

[Strathos]

We are talking people who lived in the 19th century. Is it against rules to people long dead we’re not christians?

I wouldn't risk it.

 

[Tanj]

Talking Jefferson who lived considerably later and was instrumental in writing foundational documents. The pilgrims didn’t establish the nation. Wasn’t their aim.

Also wasn't the topic you raised, specifically slavery. Despite your effort to shift the goal-posts, it remains a fact that it was the overwhelmingly protestant Christian pilgrims that codified slavery in the USA, 200 years before evolution was described.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Also wasn't the topic you raised, specifically slavery. Despite your effort to shift the goal-posts, it remains a fact that it was the overwhelmingly protestant Christian pilgrims that codified slavery in the USA, 200 years before evolution was described.

The pilgrims did not have nor bring slaves with them. The Jamestown colony is different. These were not pilgrims.

 

[Tanj]

The pilgrims did not have nor bring slaves with them. Their children were no longer pilgrims.

So long as you agree the slavers in early America were Christians, I don't care what you call them.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No, they didn’t believe the Bible nor do the teachings of Jesus or they couldn’t have chosen as they did. You think a survey of who went to church tells you that they were christians. That tells us that you have no idea what it means to believe the Bible. My point is completely valid.

You are not in the position to say that they were not Christians. You are not the arbitrator of faith nor the judge of faith. That is God's place, not yours.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are not in the position to say that they were not Christians. You are not the arbitrator of faith nor the judge of faith. That is God's place, not yours.

Finally, yes. Jesus told us how to determine another man’s faith, if it is necessary for your own decision making regarding your own life. Atheists probably cannot understand this, but you’ll make no decisions based on your perception of another man’s faith or character, right?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Finally, yes. Jesus told us how to determine another man’s faith, if it is necessary for your own decision making regarding your own life. Atheists probably cannot understand this, but you’ll make no decisions based on your perception of another man’s faith or character, right?

I honestly couldn't care less about what you think my perceptions are, but it is a historical and known fact that the Confederates states saw themselves as Christians, so therefore they were Christians, and despite all your handwringing and posturing, that fact cannot be changed.
You do not get to say who is and who isn't a Christian. End of.

 

[DamianWarS]

As to slavery, it was made illegal despite what the Bible says. You see for most people morals do not come from the Bible.

Morals also don't come from laws. Because something is legal doesn't make it moral and the suggestion that it does with regards to slavery means that when slavery was legal it was also moral. (or is that what you're saying?)

 

[Ophiolite]

Also, history records that he did nothing whatsoever about slavery. Nothing.

On the contrary. Darwin was passionately against slavery. Educate yourself on the matter before making further such egregious errors. I suggest Darwin's Sacred Cause for your reading list.

 

[DamianWarS]

So long as you agree the slavers in early America were Christians, I don't care what you call them.

The problem is not that most early Americans identified as Christian, they indeed did. The problem is identifying specific actions with universal Christian values is a hasty generalization fallacy. You can't say because many early American Christians had slaves it means Christianity values slavery.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I obviously understand better than you do as I employ it and you can only respond with the usual (yawn) atheist arrow, “you don’t understand” because you, yourself, can’t explain it or correct.

Oh my! Such epic projection! Of course I can explain how you screwed up. You even probably know how you screwed up. Before you can make such false accusations you should ask how raping your daughter is not what a good father does. That you even have to ask such a question is mind blowing. Christianity on the other hand is not so obvious as to who or what is a Christian action. The religion has always been a smorgasbord religion where people choose which parts of the Bible that they follow. That is why there are thousands of different sects.

The typical atheist response. I have yet to hear from an atheist who actually knows who is a christian by the measure Jesus uses.

I can state what Jesus says very easily. But even he was not consistent.

Since many Christians are VERY ignorant of scripture, this s likely true.

And you are probably ignorant of many parts of it too.

Wrong. It was made illegal BECAUSE of what the Bible says. But tell me where does the Bible says slavery is legal. How much do you really know it?

Nope. You need to study the history of America better. Here there were Christians on both sides of the issue and both of them used the Bible. People have a sense of right and wrong. All higher mammals appear to have such a sense. We can use that sense to have a rational basis for morality. The Bible is not a very good source of morality for slavery since it is clearly supportive of the practice in the Old Testament and never condemns it in the New Testament.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The problem is not that most early Americans identified as Christian, they indeed did. The problem is identifying specific actions with universal Christian values is a hasty generalization fallacy. You can't say because many early American Christians had slaves it means Christianity values slavery.

And now you are trying to use a strawman argument. No one said that "Christianity values slavery".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Morals also don't come from laws. Because something is legal doesn't make it moral and the suggestion that it does with regards to slavery means that when slavery was legal it was also moral. (or is that what you're saying?)

People too often try to use the Bible as a basis of morality and it constantly fails because of what it endorses. And telling people where they can buy their slaves and from whom is endorsing it.

 

[DamianWarS]

And now you are trying to use a strawman argument. No one said that "Christianity values slavery".

Then what's the point? Early American slave traders may have identified as Christian. What point are you making with this statement if not to remark on the system or Christianity itself? You are free to clarify your point if I have misunderstood it.

 

[DamianWarS]

People too often try to use the Bible as a basis of morality and it constantly fails because of what it endorses. And telling people where they can buy their slaves and from whom is endorsing it.

In what system is it endorsing it in? modern or ancient? Universal or contextual? You are treating slavery very 1 dimensionally and culture the same way. Ancient cultures are not going to fit in our mold. The use of master/slave hierarchies are not innately evil and there may be a mixture of justice and injustice happening within these systems. When it comes down to it is how people are treated as well as how they are protected by the law of the land. We can't just label salvery the same way in all circumstances because we superimpose our image of what slavery is over it.

The American agriculture labour force has a lot of migrant illegals over worked and under paid who live in the US but do not have the rights of a citizen. Is this morally right or morally wrong? What would happen If they were all deported tomorrow and what impact do you think this would have in the agricultural sector or the cost of food in grocery stores? Negative or positive? What impact would it have on the migrant illegals lives and their families? Positive or negative?

Societies are complex organisms and non are fully egalitarian. I don't know the answers of the above agricultural labour force in America because it's complex and blanket statements don't work but it's a very marred system that needs attention. I do however know a great difference can be made by the way we treat people. We have hierarchies, classes and examples of modern salvery where there is a clear top and a clear bottom. We need to speak out to the social injustices happening and do not mistreat a person or devalue them because they are in a lower position.

So where does the bible fit in this and what value does it endorse when it comes to the treatment of slaves? How does that compare to surrounding cultures? Are these positive things or negative things?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Many atheists simply have no clue when it comes reading the Bible. You don’t seem to understand, for example, that the Hebrew nation described was set up millennia ago for that time and purpose. You think instructions given to them apply to us. It’s like reading Plato and thinking we should do all written although worse.

The Hebrews were just one of many ethnic groups with their own religious practices in Canaan and the Levant at the time. The OT is just the compilation of their sacred texts and scripture. I'm not the one that said it applied to Christians, it was Jesus (allegedly) who said "I am not here to change the law but fulfill it."

Ironically, it was learning more about the contextual history of the peoples the Hebrews/Israelites interacted with that demystified the text and took it from its pedestal. The history reported in it exaggerates the importance and power of the Israelites when they do have an independent state, and is blatantly mythological in other places. This helped propel my deconversion.

What are the instructions to buy a slave? I’m curious.

It was "how to buy". (the how is important. It's not a command to buy slaves, but rather the proper way to do it if you are buying slaves.) Ex. 21, and others.

 

[jacks]

For those who are interested in slavery by various societies through out the ages. THIS is a great summary. Even a cursory reading will show it is not something unique or rare to any society.