My ExDeo Challenge

[EternalDragon]

-Gospel of Mark was written about 40 years after Jesus died
-Gospel of Matthew about 50 years after Jesus died
-Gospel of Luke, about 60 years after Jesus died
-Gospel of John about 70-80 years after Jesus died
-Also, the authors of these gospels are anonymous, no one knows who actually wrote them

With this being the majority opinion of historians and scholars (most of which are christians), it is quite difficult to claim they were eye witnesses to what they wrote and only a small faction of conservative evangelical scholars ever make this claim and they are a small minority.

If you can provide that much you can surely provide some sort of solid evidence for those claims of the exact dates those were written?

You do realize if Jesus is who he says he is and God is real then God ultimately authored those books. It doesn't matter if he did so through Matthew, Mark, John or Paul's wife, mother, sister, brother or follower who they spoke to about the events. The record would be 100% accurate.

I think this is more about your personal belief in Jesus and God than anything about the authenticity of the written accounts.

 

[bhsmte]

If you can provide that much you can surely provide some sort of solid evidence for those claims of the exact dates those were written?

You do realize if Jesus is who he says he is and God is real then God ultimately authored those books. It doesn't matter if he did so through Matthew, Mark, John or Paul's wife, mother, sister, brother or follower who they spoke to about the events. The record would be 100% accurate.

I think this is more about your personal belief in Jesus and God than anything about the authenticity of the written accounts.

I recited what I did from memory of work I have done on my own examining the work of various biblical historians and scholars.

You do realize, the work of people who study the bible from a historical and scholarly aspect is readily available to you as well, if you care to educate yourself in regards to those who have studied this topic as their livelihood?

With that said, I understand some people's desire to not take this objective and thorough exploration into the book. Suit yourself and believe what you desire to believe, based on whatever means it is you justify that belief with.

 

[AV1611VET]

Again, willing martyrs, lends no credibility to any story or belief.

Yes, it does ... and again ... we're comparing "Jesus stories" to Santa Claus.

I know you're desperately trying to change the subject, but it's not going to work with me.

 

[AV1611VET]

Santa Claus stories don't contain martyrs because Santa, in His Infinite Wisdom, didn't want to frighten children. But there are martyrs to Santa.

Have a good day.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, it does ... and again ... we're comparing "Jesus stories" to Santa Claus.

I know you're desperately trying to change the subject, but it's not going to work with me.

I'm not comparing santa claus to anything. I was simply stating that in history, people have chosen to be martyrs for all sorts of goofy reasons. Because some chose to be martyrs lends no credibility to the veracity of the belief that drove them to be martyrs.

 

[EternalDragon]

I recited what I did from memory of work I have done on my own examining the work of various biblical historians and scholars.

You do realize, the work of people who study the bible from a historical and scholarly aspect is readily available to you as well, if you care to educate yourself in regards to those who have studied this topic as their livelihood?

With that said, I understand some people's desire to not take this objective and thorough exploration into the book. Suit yourself and believe what you desire to believe, based on whatever means it is you justify that belief with.

I believe the Bible and what the writers claim. That it was not their own testimony. It was from God. God is the ultimate historical eyewitness.

So you would rather believe other men's words who can't even name the actual writers?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not comparing santa claus to anything. I was simply stating that in history, people have chosen to be martyrs for all sorts of goofy reasons. Because some chose to be martyrs lends no credibility to the veracity of the belief that drove them to be martyrs.

But it does mean they died, believing what they wrote/said was true.

Show me a martyr for Santa Claus that died because he refused to stop believing in what he wrote/said about him.

(And I want a specific name.)

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I'm really not the one claiming they are. They stand on their own. The same as any other historical account.

If you do not agree with what they claim and say then please provide concrete evidence that it was not written by eyewitness authors.

You claimed there were eyewitnesses to the biblical Jesus.

I asked you to provide one or more examples supported by most reputable biblical scholars.

If what you said is true, then this should be easy.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Have a good day.

AV, why wouldn't a Santa martyr be just as believable as a Jesus martyr?

Is there some reason my beliefs aren't as valid as your beliefs?

 

[bhsmte]

I believe the Bible and what the writers claim. That it was not their own testimony. It was from God. God is the ultimate historical eyewitness.

So you would rather believe other men's words who can't even name the actual writers?

I don't believe much of anything on man's claim that something is divine, especially when the book they are referring to is as contradictory and wrong on so many things.

You see, there is a reason they can't name the authors and if that is meaningless to you than so be it.

You believe what you like and if you are turned off that I have chosen to investigate the book by reading the works of those who study it and no it's historicity better than you, then that is your choice.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I believe the Bible and what the writers claim. That it was not their own testimony. It was from God. God is the ultimate historical eyewitness.

So you would rather believe other men's words who can't even name the actual writers?

So you don't have any evidence of an eye witnesses to Jesus.

 

[bhsmte]

But it does mean they died, believing what they wrote/said was true.

Show me a martyr for Santa Claus that died because he refused to stop believing in what he wrote/said about him.

(And I want a specific name.)

Again, I'm not comparing santa claus, so you can get off of that one.

And sure, people have been martyrs with all sorts of different beliefs. Did they really believe in what they became martyrs about? Absolutely they did. Does it make their belief true, absolutely not.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, why wouldn't a Santa martyr be just as believable as a Jesus martyr?

Is there some reason my beliefs aren't as valid as your beliefs?

Did you see what I was originally addressing in the first place?

Without referring back to the bible to support it's own validity (to avoid circular reasoning), show us how the Jesus stories are any less absurd than Santa Claus stories.

If there is a Santa martyr somewhere, show me.

If you want to claim the "Jesus stories" are on the same par as Santa Claus stories, that's your prerogative.

But if you ask me why I don't believe they are on the same par, I'll submit martyrs as a major reason the two are different.

And for the record, I could submit many more reasons as well.

Such as wars fought, a major superpower claiming it was built on His principles, how our coins are stamped, and even a phrase in our Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[EternalDragon]

I don't believe much of anything on man's claim that something is divine, especially when the book they are referring to is as contradictory and wrong on so many things.

You see, there is a reason they can't name the authors and if that is meaningless to you than so be it.

You believe what you like and if you are turned off that I have chosen to investigate the book by reading the works of those who study it and no it's historicity better than you, then that is your choice.

So we are free to choose to believe what we want? Cool. Then you will stop insisting that the Bible is not an eyewitness account?

 

[AV1611VET]

Again, I'm not comparing santa claus, so you can get off of that one.

Then why are we even having this discussion?

What? did you see the word "martyr" in one of my replies and start salivating?

You don't even know what we're talking about, do you?

 

[bhsmte]

So we are free to choose to believe what we want? Cool. Then you will stop insisting that the Bible is not an eyewitness account?

Again, let me make this clear.

There is no evidence that the gospels contain eye witness accounts of Jesus, but there is evidence that the gospels were not eye witness accounts, were written by unknown authors 40+ years after Jesus died.

That is my position based on looking at the work of NT scholars and historians.

Again, this information is readily available to you with a few key strokes.

 

[bhsmte]

Then why are we even having this discussion?

What? did you see the word "martyr" in one of my replies and start salivating?

You don't even know what we're talking about, do you?

AV, don't act naive.

Another poster mentioned santa claus, I did not.

You mentioned martyrs added credibility to the christian story and I have examples of martyrs popping up in history for all sorts of beliefs and being a martyr does not mean what they believed was true.

 

[AV1611VET]

Time to PM a mod ... unfortunately.

 

[Delphiki]

Did you see what I was originally addressing in the first place?

If there is a Santa martyr somewhere, show me.

If you want to claim the "Jesus stories" are on the same par as Santa Claus stories, that's your prerogative.

But if you ask me why I don't believe they are on the same par, I'll submit martyrs as a major reason the two are different.

And for the record, I could submit many more reasons as well.

Such as wars fought, a major superpower claiming it was built on His principles, how our coins are stamped, and even a phrase in our Pledge of Allegiance.

So, you're saying it's impossible to create a work of fiction involving a martyr? How does one character being a martyr make it any more real? That would mean at least half of the super villains in literature actually exist.

Got any other ideas?

 

[EternalDragon]

Again, let me make this clear.

There is no evidence that the gospels contain eye witness accounts of Jesus, but there is evidence that the gospels were not eye witness accounts, were written by unknown authors 40+ years after Jesus died.

That is my position based on looking at the work of NT scholars and historians.

Again, this information is readily available to you with a few key strokes.

2 Peter 1:16 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

18 "And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.