My Ecliptic Challenge

[Ectezus]

And then what about tomorrow? And the next day?

You want Him to keep coming back here, only to be crucified again and again?

In every dispensation God was here, He was asked to leave.

Especially this last one coming up, in which, after ruling and reigning here for one thousand years, He will be attacked by combined forces led by Satan himself.

It's just funny how all the miracles happened long ago and there is not a shred of evidence to support them. Just words on paper. No more, no less.

And we're not gonna rehash this thread again, are we?

Yeah lets not derail this thread.
So AV, back to the OP, why do you take it literally that the earth rotated while Joshua 10:13 itself says "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped".
You are already not taking that literal, so why the rest of the sentence?

- Ectezus

 

[Nathan Poe]

Science would explain the how of it -- but to disprove it, we only need look at the why of it.

Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

Well, let's use Matthew 28:19 as our first example:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

God's instructions to His followers are pretty explicit, aren't they?

But wait, it gets better: Matthew 5:38-39
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Seems like "God" isn't much of a fan of revenge by mundane means, much less miraculous ones.

Let's add a doctrine which I'm sure you're familiar with -- the immutability of God; Malachi 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. "

So, since God doesn't change, neither would His instructions to His followers. Even the OT God wanted all nations converted -- just ask Jonah.

Now, let's look at your example:
"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

So -- God allegedly committed this miracle in order to facilitate genocide. Not only does this blatantly contradict Matthew 5:38-39 (a theological impossibility), but it would make it impossible for Joshua to fulfill the instructions of Matthew 28:19 (In case you didn't know, you can't convert a nation after you exterminate it).

That leaves us with two possibilities -- take your pick:

1. The event did not happen as described in the Bible
2. The Sun was indeed stopped by someone/thing other than God, and the author of Joshua mistakenly give Him the credit.

Of course, given that I'm talking to you, there's a third possibility: 3. You'll completely ignore the Bible's plain language in favor of your own self-serving interpretation, make some vague irrelevant remark, possibly involving Pluto, and /thread out.

Place your bets, people.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Nathan 1
AV 0

 

[LightSeaker]

Personally I don't find something written 2000 years ago and using nothing more than a simple sundial to measure a 'mirracle' a good source but I guess that's where you an I differ.

The events associated with Joshua would have happened around 1400 BC.

.

 

[AV1611VET]

The events associated with Joshua would have happened around 1400 BC.

.

We're talking Isaiah 38.

 

[Nathan Poe]

We're talking Isaiah 38.

Which was most likely written around the 700s BC.

On a different note, since when did "we" stop talking about Joshua?

(Joshua who, btw, would've lived around 1400 BC)

 

[AV1611VET]

Which was most likely written around the 700s BC.

On a different note, since when did "we" stop talking about Joshua?

(Joshua who, btw, would've lived around 1400 BC)

You might want to follow along, Nathan.

Feel free to peruse this thread in catch-up mode.

 

[AV1611VET]

Please provide scriptural support for this idea. Also for God stopping the earth instead of the sun.

I'm talking about the ecliptic path in my OP.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

<staff edit>
This will give you context.

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AV1611VET]

<staff edit>
Science can take a hike, where science infringes on the Bible.

For example, God suspended (or superseded) certain physical laws when Jesus walked on water.

In other words, science takes a hike when God's will demands it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

I'd rather use it theologically than scientifically -- An omnipotent God who uses his omnipotence to facilitate genocide is clearly sociopathic and unworthy of worship by anyone with a functioning conscience.

When I am told that such a God, who is allegedly eternal and unchanging, now wants me to love others as He loves us all, I'll take that "love" with a grain of salt -- I wouldn't want to kill anyone, after all.

 

[Jamin4422]

When I am told that such a God, who is allegedly eternal and unchanging, now wants me to love others as He loves us all, I'll take that "love" with a grain of salt -- I wouldn't want to kill anyone, after all.

God puts His love in us. Even if we need to forgive, that is a work God can do in and though us. After all He forgives us and that means we are to forgive others. So we love with the love that God gives us to love others with.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God puts His love in us. Even if we need to forgive, that is a work God can do in and though us. After all He forgives us and that means we are to forgive others. So we love with the love that God gives us to love others with.

The OP said "Use Joshua 10:13 as an example."

Having read the entire chapter in order to put that verse the proper context, I can't say I see a lot of love or forgiveness for the Amorites.

So I'll pass.

 

[Jamin4422]

I can't say I see a lot of love or forgiveness for the Amorites.

I am sure that God gave them every chance to repent. Sooner or later if people do not turn away from their sin then they will reap the consequences. God is long suffering not wanting any to perish. He wants all to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Jaimin4422, I see no way to sugarcoat this, and I hope you are not offended by my bluntness, but your response is simply absurd on several levels.

Allow me to explain:

I am sure that God gave them every chance to repent.

You're sure because you want to be sure. You're sure because the alternative is too unpleasant to contemplate. You're sure in spite of the Bible's account.

I need more than wishful thinking to go with.

Sooner or later if people do not turn away from their sin then they will reap the consequences. God is long suffering not wanting any to perish. He wants all to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

Are we reading the same chapter? First of all, these people did not perish from sin, they perished because Joshua and the Israelites slaughtered them to the last man, woman, and child!

Second, The God whom you claimed doesn't want anyone to perish miraculously helped Joshua kill these people -- NOT because Joshua needed the help, mind you -- the Amorites were doomed one way or the other -- Joshua just wanted to kill them by daylight, and God thought this was a reasonable enough request to literally stop the world for.

And even without the miraculous "long day," don't you think it's hypocritical of such a God "not wanting any to perish" racking up a higher body count than the Israelites themselves?

Joshua 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

I hightlighted the part to point out that God was slaughtering these people as they were in retreat -- that's considered bad form in any war, and rather inconsistent with a God who wants to "save" people with "the Truth."

As for the "saving knowledge of the truth," I'd really like to know what truth would've saved the Amorites from Joshua and his army. Care to explain it?

 

[Jamin4422]

You're sure because you want to be sure.

I am sure because that is what the Bible says. You seem to want to argue that God is not Just. Yet I am convinced that God is absolute perfect Justice. His scales are perfectly balanced.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11[/FONT]It is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]‘every knee will bow before me;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]every tongue will confess to God.’”[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12[/FONT]So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]We are much better to judge ourselves, then ask God to wash, cleanse and purify us.
[/FONT]

 

[RaiseTheDead]

The OP said "Use Joshua 10:13 as an example."

Having read the entire chapter in order to put that verse the proper context, I can't say I see a lot of love or forgiveness for the Amorites.

So I'll pass.

This is a Jewish story, correct? And how do the Jews teach this story? (Speaking of context)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Jaimin4422, I see no way to sugarcoat this, and I hope you are not offended by my bluntness, but your response is simply absurd on several levels.

Allow me to explain:

You're sure because you want to be sure. You're sure because the alternative is too unpleasant to contemplate. You're sure in spite of the Bible's account.

I need more than wishful thinking to go with.

Obviously, you are not familiar with the related accounts. I thought you linked me to this thread so I could see some atheists accounting for hermeneutics? You utterly disappoint. No historical context, no linguistic considerations, no cultural framework; no desire to know the truth of what the text conveys, apparently.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

1. The sun stopped in the sky, not the earth
2. The sun is moving at 1.3 million miles per hour in reference to the CBR
3. The earth is currently ~93 million miles from the sun. An arbitrary stoppage of the sun would produce little effect on the earth
This would at most influence the apparent position in the sky by less than 1 degree.
4. Hence, very little daylight could have been gained in this method.

Now, this was recorded in the book of Jasher which is not part of any bible (having been lost in antiquity). Are you claiming that the book of Jasher is inerrant? How can we verify the original telling of the story anyway?

1) It's also recorded in the canon

2) You fail to account for the speed of the earth itself, and this need to adjust your conclusion. (Not that the text says that the sun stopped in its path while the earth continued at its normal pace, but you should at least be mathematically consistent in the way you throw a wet towel around)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

When you're driving in a car going 80 miles per hour and suddenly stop you're going to fly through the front window. But I'm sure you knew that...

What do you think happened in Joshua 10:13 AV?

The seatbelt law was already enacted

Either that or god magically stopped everyone from flying into space.

See: seatbelt law. (It later got repealed by one of the snot-nosed little brat kings of Israel)