My "Do atheists understand the Bible" Challenge

[Endtime Survivors]

In any event the question then would become, is there any measurable state of being that I couldn't experience as an atheist that a Christian can.

Yes. Willingness. John 7:17 and John 8:31-32. Both of these verses suggest that truth and understanding will come from acting on Jesus' teachings, which makes sense. Consider Matthew 7:5. The more we learn to judge ourselves, first, the more clearly we will see how to fairly judge others. The more we practice this teaching, the more truth we will discover, first about ourselves and then about others, just like the John 8 reference suggests.

An unwilling person will, of course, lack experience and therefore exposure to more truth.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

For the record my own reading of the Bible suggests that predestination of the elect and irresistible grace are the most internally coherent view.

Internally coherent? Is that like, you think the Bible does teach a grace which is unable to be resisted?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Jesus was afraid to face death. Remember the Garden of Gethsemane scene?

Hi BL. I hope you don't mind me butting in. I'd like to offer an alternative perspective on this issue of Jesus being afraid. Jesus told his disciples not to be afraid of what people can do to the body. When they were afraid, he told them not to be, because he had a plan to "overcome the world" and that he would faithfully execute that plan.

It doesn't make sense to me that Jesus would then go and do the very thing he told his disciples not to do, i.e. wallow in fear. While the physical pain would have definitely been on his mind at some point (and the Passion of the Christ movie certainly gives a vivid account of what that pain might have looked like), I suspect Jesus' real concern was being separated from his communion with God.

If he's taking on sin, then that necessarily would separate him from God. He, the son of God who was given the spirit without measure, who'd always trusted and depended on God for everything in a way that is hard for us to imagine, suddenly ripped away from that source of truth and strength, away from something infinitely more important that pain, death, and life itself. I think that is why Jesus was sweating blood. He was not afraid; he was deathly depressed over having to go through that separation.

 

[SolomonVII]

Challenge:
Jepthah's daughter....

 

[mark kennedy]

Yikes... I only got that one because of your hint about the 4 !

A question for you though... is it possible that the pastor was wrong about me personally but correct about atheists generally? That is if I as an atheist can understand the Bible, could he still be correct that atheists in general can't (not don't BUT CAN'T) understand the Bible?

No, in fact I found the opposite to be true, very often atheists can be very insightful with regards to the Scriptures. They appear to be incapable of personal insight but they seem pretty uncomplicated about reading what is right in front of them the way it's written.

Ok got another one for you:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" (Romans 9:20)​

No hint's this time, just a cross reference,

"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'? (Isaiah 45:9)​

Ok, let's see you unravel that one smarty pants. Just kidding, if you notice I'm drawing from the prophets, they drove me crazy for years.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

And how do we test that the church leader with whom you spoke indeed has superior hermeneutical/exegetical acumen? Who or What provides us that standard? The board of trustrees at his local, denominationally ridden Seminary? To me, all this comparing and contrasting as to who has the best understanding of the Bible nearly is "Mission Impossible."

Personally, I surmise that there are some atheists who do understand the Bible, and there are some who really don't---just like there are some Christians who probably have a substantial understanding of it, and some others who make you cringe every they open their mouths because they are experts in making Scripture Pretzels.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Personally, I surmise that there are some atheists who do understand the Bible, and there are some who really don't---just like there are some Christians who probably have a substantial understanding of it, and some others who make you cringe every they open their mouths because they are experts in making Scripture Pretzels.

You've spoken my mind.

 

[Athée]

No doubt that the Bible itself reveals that every word was caused to be written by God. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 1 Corinthians 2:9-14
Only the Holy Spirit of God is capable of interpreting and applying the Bible in context. Look up verbal plenary inspiration.

We need no argument, no debate, no multiple "considerations."

Neat, so in theory I shouldn't be able to understand any of this right?

 

[Athée]

Jesus was afraid to face death. Remember the Garden of Gethsemane scene?



Does God know what it's like to have cancer from first hand experience? Maybe not. But he does know what it's like to be subject to sickness, disease, and death.

Does God know what it's like to use a cellphone from first hand experience? Maybe not. But I'm not sure that this is making much of a point.



I'm not sure what you mean by measurable state. Are you saying that you know what it's like to have faith in Jesus and to repent of your sins?

Garden...good point although I'm not sure it was a fear of death since Jesus, presumably, knew that he wasn't actually going to die in the way that we all do and would be back with himself in heaven in a week.
As for the experiences you were saying that there was an experiential level to understanding, that I might be capable of understanding the logic and meaning of a text but not have this experiential understanding. To the extent that this is true then God likewise does not understand all the things he has not experienced personally, make of that what you will
Finally I was asking since you seem to believe that there are experiences that I can't have, then if those experiences produce any measurable product in you as you experience them. If they do, what is it?

 

[Athée]

And how do we test that the church leader with whom you spoke indeed has superior hermeneutical/exegetical acumen? Who or What provides us that standard? The board of trustrees at his local, denominationally ridden Seminary? To me, all this comparing and contrasting as to who has the best understanding of the Bible nearly is "Mission Impossible."

Personally, I surmise that there are some atheists who do understand the Bible, and there are some who really don't---just like there are some Christians who probably have a substantial understanding of it, and some others who make you cringe every they open their mouths because they are experts in making Scripture Pretzels.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

That's more or less how I see it as well 2PhiloVoid, but I run across this perspective often enough that I thought it might be worth exploring

 

[Athée]

Yes. Willingness. John 7:17 and John 8:31-32. Both of these verses suggest that truth and understanding will come from acting on Jesus' teachings, which makes sense. Consider Matthew 7:5. The more we learn to judge ourselves, first, the more clearly we will see how to fairly judge others. The more we practice this teaching, the more truth we will discover, first about ourselves and then about others, just like the John 8 reference suggests.

An unwilling person will, of course, lack experience and therefore exposure to more truth.

I am willing to have this discussion with you and so have clearly experienced willingness, moreover I have discovered truth eg 2 + 2 = 4 without any reference to Jesus or his teachings and so the second premise there is demonstrably not exclusive.

 

[brightlights]

Garden...good point although I'm not sure it was a fear of death since Jesus, presumably, knew that he wasn't actually going to die in the way that we all do and would be back with himself in heaven in a week.

Jesus truly died as any of us do. He also rose from death as those who believe in him will.

And, slight correction, he remained on earth for 40 days after his resurrection before ascending to the right hand of the Father.

Finally I was asking since you seem to believe that there are experiences that I can't have, then if those experiences produce any measurable product in you as you experience them. If they do, what is it?

I'm not sure what you mean by "measurable product". Could you elaborate?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Please do Numbers 5, Numbers 31, and Judges 19.

 

[-57]

That is a great one, especially since an Armenian and a Calvinist would disagree about what is being said here. For the record my own reading of the Bible suggests that predestination of the elect and irresistible grace are the most internally coherent view.
In any case I would take this to mean that faith (the very element needed for salvation) is itself a gift from God, a gift which must be bestowed before the human can come to Him.

Then what do you do with that truth? Unless God taps you on the shoulder....you have a problem.

 

[Winken]

Neat, so in theory I shouldn't be able to understand any of this right?

What does scripture say?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I am willing to have this discussion with you and so have clearly experienced willingness

Nah, willingness is what leads to learning, so you can't say, "I was willing yesterday so now I have all the experience I need to make an accurate assessment". Even practicing Christians need a renewed willingness from day to day; a willingness to try new things and explore new perspectives.

moreover I have discovered truth eg 2 + 2 = 4 without any reference to Jesus or his teachings

This is an example of you not understanding the spiritual side. A student can understand 2+2=4 without understanding that it is called "mathematics". So too can someone tap into the Holy Spirit without understanding that it is the Holy Spirit. God isn't as concerned about names, titles, and categories as we are. He looks at the inside, so that a neighbor-loving atheist will be closer to God's spirit than a self-righteous Christian.

The parable of the sheep and goats is a good example. The final result was based on what they did and didn't do to love their neighbor, and the interesting thing about the sheep (who were rewarded) is that they seemed to not even understand that they had been helping God all along, which suggests this wasn't just an issue of bad Christians being punished while good Christians are rewarded, but rather that God looks at behavior rather than titles or categories.

But sincerity works both ways, too. Those people who show love can only do so because they tap in to God's spirit, but the spirit's job is to lead us into all truth, and eventually that will lead back to Jesus. At each step along the way our sincerity will be tested. The moment we stop moving forward because of some issue we don't want to deal with, we cease to be sincere.

God is so different from us. We use various categories like "Christian", "atheist", "Buddhist", "agnostic" etc to quickly summarize a set of beliefs and at times this is helpful. If I come across a Mormon, the title helps me to quickly understand where this person is coming from. I still need to be open to their personal sincerity, but at least I've got a starting point to work from.

But we often push these titles far beyond their practical usefulness into something more like "this is who I am; this title defines me as a person". We make the title a representation of who we are deep down, and so any challenge, change, or question of the title is like trespassing against truth itself. In practical terms it goes something like, an atheist cannot express love for their neighbor because neighbor loving is a Christian thing and you can't do Christian things unless you have the correct title. I have seen avowed Christians who will argue that an atheist volunteering in an orphanage isn't really neighbor loving, because they are not doing it "in the name of Jesus".

But to God that kind of thing is pettiness. He looks right past all the game playing, deep down into the heart and he judges each individual based on their sincere willingness (or unwillingness) to interact with his spirit a little more.

This is why your comments about not needing Jesus to understand that 2+2=4 misses the point. You're still playing the "My title is better than yours Vs I don't need your title" game.

 

[Norbert L]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

To understand scripture accurately and explaining a section of scripture is like having two different lengths of goal posts. The challenged is skewed and does not accurately represent the issue. If it did, atheists would become Christians.

It's an age old debate between Christians and their non believing counterparts. Just by being able to describe a section of scripture does not mean you hold to its' accuracy. You would be a Christian if you accurately understood scripture and what it entails. The underlying case in point is Romans 10:9, as the ESV puts it, "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." For you to interpret that scripture with your mouth and not believe in your heart, shows that by understanding it mentally yet reject it spiritually, does not accurately understand scripture the same way a Christian does.

There are two different sets of goals posts at play with your challenge, if they were equal, you'd be a Christian.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Good post!
I certainly take your point, although if experience is crucial to understanding then there are many things that God doesn't understand
In any event the question then would become, is there any measurable state of being that I couldn't experience as an atheist that a Christian can.

That might be, but....since you are a former Christian, it seems that your hypothetical exclusion is a bit ......tenuous in meaning and application, don't you think? As a former Christian, surely you've already experienced at least some of the things that a good number, if not most, Christians typically experience. (For instance, you probably had at least one day or two in your life when you woke up and assumed and felt that God was there and on your side. No?)

Unless you're talking about something you haven't experienced yet, like "being caught up to the 'Third Heaven'," or some superlative phenomenon like that, then in such a future-tense case, we might be tempted to say, "No more Third Heaven opportunities for you, Athée!!" In other words, from this point on, you might not be privy to having special heavenly insights arranged 'just for you.'

But who knows--I can't tell you what God might or might not really be willing to do just for you! What I can tell you, epistemolgically speaking, is that "to those who Have, more will be given, and to those who don't Have, even what they have will be taken away!" (Sounds like a fair deal to me! How 'bout for you? [...you did ask for a 'challenge,' didn't you?])

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jesus was afraid to face death. Remember the Garden of Gethsemane scene?



Does God know what it's like to have cancer from first hand experience? Maybe not. But he does know what it's like to be subject to sickness, disease, and death.

Does God know what it's like to use a cellphone from first hand experience? Maybe not. But I'm not sure that this is making much of a point.



I'm not sure what you mean by measurable state. Are you saying that you know what it's like to have faith in Jesus and to repent of your sins?

..........to this we might add that most of us don't know what it is to die by Crucifixion. And most of us--I think--don't hope to find out. But, Jesus knows; Hence God Knows what physical death via Crucifixion is like.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid