My "Do atheists understand the Bible" Challenge

[Athée]

I don't know about that. I've heard about various physical contortions the human system may undergo while hanging on a cross--such as the lungs filling up with fluid. (Yuck!)

Still a different experience than drowning in a flood. If that matters for understanding

 

[Athée]

Just you posting here and presenting your argument that God doesn't exist...shows your worried about the idea of God existing.
Perhaps you believe you can "kill" God in your mind and that will make Him go away.

That's an interesting assumption. Can you think of any other motivations, other than worry, that someone like me would be posting in forums like this?

 

[Athée]

The parable of the ten virgins is in Matthew 25.
Matthew 25:1 begins with "Then shall the kingdom of heaven..."
not now shall - or used to be, but in the future -then shall this parable come into play
Since chapter 25 begins with the word - "Then", it has to be linked up with chapter 24. We head back into chapter 24 for the answer as to when the parable of the ten virgins will take place and also the sheep and goats judgment.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day..."
What day?
Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth shall pass away..."

Here is the time slot then also for the things of Matthew 25. The sheep and goats people will be not be judged for if they were Christians, believed on Jesus Christ; but how they treated His brethren.
"....My brethren..."
Matthew 25:40
/not their brethren

The goats type of people will not die and go to the grave, but will go away into everlasting punishment, as in they head to the lake of fire.
The righteous/sheep type of people will inherit the kingdom. This means that they will no longer be in flesh and blood bodies, as flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

"but the righteous into life eternal"
from Matthew 25:46
It is time soon for the new heaven and new earth. The never died people/never were buried; but still lived on the old earth will get divided up into sheep and goats before the new earth comes.
This is the same scene as the wheat and the tares - that happens at the end of the world.

Matthew 13:39
"....the end of the world..."
Matthew 13:40
"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire...in the end of this world."

That's good. Nothing in there seems like it would be impossible for an atheist to understand. Is there an element in there that you think might meet that criteria?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Winken]

That's good. Nothing in there seems like it would be impossible for an atheist to understand. Is there an element in there that you think might meet that criteria?

Athee, it is obvious that you are not Spiritually informed. You have zero insight into the Spiritual message of scripture. You don't know Jesus. You reject God.

Therefore, at this point, you cannot be saved from eternal separation from our Creator. You will not abide with Jesus after your death. Your destiny, as of right now, today, is the Great White Throne Judgment.

You can change all that. Set aside the intellectualism, your formidable debate skills (your brain in action) for the Word of God. Turn from your lost estate. Look to Him for eternal life in His Presence. Do that now:

Romans 10:8-13, John 5:24, John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9. Rejoice with us in Romans 8:1.

Experience the very Love of God right now.

In Him be blessed!!!!



Auf Wiedersehen (hoffentlich)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Still a different experience than drowning in a flood. If that matters for understanding

Why am I starting to feel like we're playing the "Would You Rather" game?

 

[thesunisout]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

Hi there,

What do you think Romans 10:9-11 means?

 

[rjs330]

That's good. Nothing in there seems like it would be impossible for an atheist to understand. Is there an element in there that you think might meet that criteria?

Well it appears that you are clearly making valid the point of my previous post. You may understand the English words of the Bible. The spiritual truth of those words are lost on you because you don't believe them. True understanding comes with belief. Or true understanding creates belief. When you say that the Bible is absolutely true then we can say you understand.

 

[Athée]

Whom would you say are the "My brethren" that the nations are judged for how they treated them before the new earth comes?

What kind of oil do you think is in the lamps in the ten virgins parable?

This not knowing the day nor the hour fits in with other places in the NT as to their timing.

The throne of His glory does not seem to be the same as the great white throne found in Revelation 20:11. John sees for the first time a new throne. "a great white throne"

With all due respect this seems like something that I could google and get a sufficient answer to. Is there something in there that requires a special spiritual understanding?

 

[Athée]

Athee, it is obvious that you are not Spiritually informed. You have zero insight into the Spiritual message of scripture. You don't know Jesus. You reject God.

Therefore, at this point, you cannot be saved from eternal separation from our Creator. You will not abide with Jesus after your death. Your destiny, as of right now, today, is the Great White Throne Judgment.

You can change all that. Set aside the intellectualism, your formidable debate skills (your brain in action) for the Word of God. Turn from your lost estate. Look to Him for eternal life in His Presence. Do that now:

Romans 10:8-13, John 5:24, John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9. Rejoice with us in Romans 8:1.

Experience the very Love of God right now.

In Him be blessed!!!!



Auf Wiedersehen (hoffentlich)

What exactly do you mean when you say the spiritual message of the scriptures?

 

[Athée]

Why am I starting to feel like we're playing the "Would You Rather" game?

LOL, my kids were playing that at dinner tonight... Somehow they never chose the "eat the Asian fusion stir fry that dad made tonight" as their choice. How is dead worms better... I don't know, maybe my stir fry was just that awful

 

[Endtime Survivors]

If I understand you properly you are saying that, leaving aside the question of labels, any time anyone understands anything about the scriptures, they are engaged in a godly act.

No. If you see a hurt person on the side of the road, it does no good to explain to that person that you understand they are in need and then walk away.

As such even though I am not convinced God exists, any time I read and understand the meaning of scripture I am partaking of this godliness?

No. Jesus told a parable about wise and foolish people. Both people heard his teachings, but only the wise acted on them. He said to them, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Jesus was interested in action. In fact, your quest for better understanding actually puts you in a more difficult position, because you're making yourself more accountable for what you know, or as the Bible puts it, to whom much is given, much shall be required.

If so it seems that you would agree that atheists, Muslims, Christians etc can all understand the Bible to the extent that they are drawing from this godliness.

Well, yeah. Most of Jesus' teachings are pretty easy to understand. Take the lower seat. If you have a seat on the bus and you see someone who doesn't have a seat struggling with luggage, kids, or whatever, stand up and give them the better position. That's not hard to understand.

Some of them are a little more tricky, like the one I quoted earlier about giving to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God. After we've given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar? It's not that Jesus was trying to keep some people from understanding, but rather he wanted the people to show a bit of sincerity by trying for themselves to understand the spiritual lessons behind the teachings.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Is that like, you think the Bible does teach a grace which is unable to be resisted?

Short answer: yes

If the answer really was "yes", then you wouldn't be an Atheist. I don't think you have a right understanding of grace at all, then.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Somehow they never chose the "eat the Asian fusion stir fry that dad made tonight" as their choice.

*imagines sparkling stir-fry and drools*

 

[Athée]

Well it appears that you are clearly making valid the point of my previous post. You may understand the English words of the Bible. The spiritual truth of those words are lost on you because you don't believe them. True understanding comes with belief. Or true understanding creates belief. When you say that the Bible is absolutely true then we can say you understand.

You say true understanding comes with belief. So does that mean that unless you believe Islam to be true you can't have understood it?

 

[Athée]

No. If you see a hurt person on the side of the road, it does no good to explain to that person that you understand they are in need and then walk away.



No. Jesus told a parable about wise and foolish people. Both people heard his teachings, but only the wise acted on them. He said to them, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Jesus was interested in action. In fact, your quest for better understanding actually puts you in a more difficult position, because you're making yourself more accountable for what you know, or as the Bible puts it, to whom much is given, much shall be required.



Well, yeah. Most of Jesus' teachings are pretty easy to understand. Take the lower seat. If you have a seat on the bus and you see someone who doesn't have a seat struggling with luggage, kids, or whatever, stand up and give them the better position. That's not hard to understand.

Some of them are a little more tricky, like the one I quoted earlier about giving to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God. After we've given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar? It's not that Jesus was trying to keep some people from understanding, but rather he wanted the people to show a bit of sincerity by trying for themselves to understand the spiritual lessons behind the teachings.

This seems to wander away from the question of understanding and into the territory of actions. That said your thoughts on the need for action are well taken

 

[Athée]

If the answer really was "yes", then you wouldn't be an Atheist. I don't think you have a right understanding of grace at all, then.

I'm not sure why atheism and the belief that the bible teaches irresistible grace are incompatible. Or to use a different text, understanding the symbolism in "Haroun and the sea of stories" requires that one be anti Muslim.
Ps. Great book if you haven't read it yet (youth novel)

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So, your argument is that God who made man...and God who knows everything...doesn't know what it's like to drown? You argue God can't know?

I was also thinking about this conundrum. Certainly, a being who created time/space/matter and is able to exist outside these concepts should know what it's like to drown. But then, that was at least part of why Jesus became flesh; for God to know what it's like to be a man.

But I wonder about that. I don't think Jesus becoming flesh was for God's sake so much as it was for ours. In the parable of the vinyard, the owner sends messengers to reason with the thugs, but the messengers are all killed. Then the owner says, "I know, I'll send my son. Surely they will respect him". The idea is one of God trying to find ways to interact and reason with us, but on his terms, not ours.

Jesus was meant to be the ultimate sign of God's love for us, that God himself would become one of us, to live like us, to share in the same kinds of pain and misery and joys we experience. It's not that God could not already experience these kinds of things up there at his level, but whats the point of God being able to empathize with our struggles if we don't know that he can empathize? He could just tell us, but that's the lesson from the parable; the people didn't listen to the messengers.

Jesus represented a medium through which our tiny, stubborn brains could understand that God not only cares, but he also has hands-on experience with being human just like us. He demonstrated, as a human, the kind of behavior, values, and lifestyle God is looking for.

 

[Athée]

*imagines sparkling stir-fry and drools*

It was so good, I even fried some shredded shallot into crisps as a garnish and they still wouldn't give it the thumbs up... Little wretches... That I love

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I'm not sure why atheism and the belief that the bible teaches irresistible grace are incompatible. Or to use a different text, understanding the symbolism in "Haroun and the sea of stories" requires that one be anti Muslim.
Ps. Great book if you haven't read it yet (youth novel)

Well, maybe we have different ideas of what "irresistible" means, but to me it means "unable to resist". If that were the case, how could you be an atheist? You would be a Christian, unable to resist God's grace. Am I just not getting you somehow?