My "Do atheists understand the Bible" Challenge

[Athée]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

 

[USincognito]

Subbing. I am most interested in discussing Genesis 1-11.

 

[Athée]

Subbing. I am most interested in discussing Genesis 1-11.

Thanks for checking out the thread
So gen 1:1-10 is the account (some think literal, some not) of God (presumably Yaweh) creating light/dark, the heavens and the earth. V. 11 is about the flora that he then created. The point of the passage seems to be the God is the creator of the universe generally and earth specifically.

How did I do?

 

[KWCrazy]

John 2:
But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

 

[USincognito]

Athee,
We're basically on the same page and I'm coattailing on your OP. I see most of Genesis as a theology lesson and would like to see how some here evaluate my understanding of it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

I got one for you:

Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. (Ezekiel 1:15-21)
​

Who are these creatures? I'll give you a hint, there are four.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Athée]

John 2:
But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

I usually hear this from Christians to say that they recognize the leading of the holy spirit/the voice of God in their lives. In any event the metaphor in this passage is about Jesus. He is the Shepard and when he calls his sheep (Christians) recognize his voice and follow him. Moreover Christians will also recognize voices that are not of Jesus and not only will they not follow where those voices lead, they will actively seek to avoid doing this.

How did I do?

 

[Athée]

I got one for you:

Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. (Ezekiel 1:15-21)
​

Who are these creatures? I'll give you a hint, there are four.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Wow that is a tough one. The hint about the 4 makes me think of the creatures in Revelation so my guess would be they are angles of some kind or another. I also admit that just from that passage I am not getting a specific meaning for the verses. I suspect this is one of those that has to be read in context

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks for checking out the thread
So gen 1:1-10 is the account (some think literal, some not) of God (presumably Yaweh) creating light/dark, the heavens and the earth. V. 11 is about the flora that he then created. The point of the passage seems to be the God is the creator of the universe generally and earth specifically.

How did I do?

The heart of the emphasis is that God created life in general and man in particular:

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:27)
​

That's an interesting Hebrew literary feature, it's called a parallelism. A lot of the times they would repeat things for emphasis, most of the Proverbs have this kind of a structure. It might also interest you that Yaweh isn't the name for God here, that's the covenant name of God made known to Moses early in Exodus. The word here is Elohim which means God Almighty.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[KWCrazy]

So gen 1:1-10 is the account (some think literal, some not) of God (presumably Yaweh) creating light/dark, the heavens and the earth. V. 11 is about the flora that he then created. The point of the passage seems to be the God is the creator of the universe generally and earth specifically.

Genesis 1:11 is not a stand alone verse. It leads into 12 and 13. In verse 13, we read, "And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day." Evolution proponents quote this verse to show that God used a natural formation of grasses, trees and other vegetation. However verse 13 is the kicker. This "evolution" happened on the third day. The sun, moon and stars were yet to be created and there were trees bearing fruit. This is possible because there is already a source of light that is none of the above. Henceforth, that source of light is never again mentioned, so it stands to reason that the light BECAME the sun, moon and stars in an instant. Big Bang cosmology claims much the same thing, but dates the event many million years ago.

 

[Athée]

Athee,
We're basically on the same page and I'm coattailing on your OP. I see most of Genesis as a theology lesson and would like to see how some here evaluate my understanding of it.

Cool, one gently used gauntlet returned to owner
Enjoy the thread!

 

[mark kennedy]

I usually hear this from Christians to say that they recognize the leading of the holy spirit/the voice of God in their lives. In any event the metaphor in this passage is about Jesus. He is the Shepard and when he calls his sheep (Christians) recognize his voice and follow him. Moreover Christians will also recognize voices that are not of Jesus and not only will they not follow where those voices lead, they will actively seek to avoid doing this.

How did I do?

Jesus is probably talking to people who know a lot about tending to flocks. Sheep know the voice of their Shepherd. A guy spoke at my church, apparently he had traveled the Holy Land quite a bit. He said he came to a well where sheep are watered and several flocks were there at the same time. He's thinking how are they going to sort them out. When they left they each sang this little song and their sheep followed them. Jesus liked to use things from peoples ordinary lives to relate things. When Jesus told the Apostles, get up and follow me, they just did it. Later Jesus would pray in the Upper Room, Father they were yours and you gave them to me. I think that means they were already in a relationship with God, they just did what they were used to doing, following the instructions of God as they understood them.

 

[mark kennedy]

Wow that is a tough one. The hint about the 4 makes me think of the creatures in Revelation so my guess would be they are angles of some kind or another. I also admit that just from that passage I am not getting a specific meaning for the verses. I suspect this is one of those that has to be read in context

Oh, so you do know a little something about the Bible. Your right and the context of Ezekiel just makes it more confusing, there are the same creatures as the four in Revelations. This one had me stumped for years but picked up a book by Billy Graham on Angels. Apparently these four are in the very presence of God, the other angels pretty much stand before him. It's a little bit of a stretch but these angels take the Ark of the Covenant to heaven, where it is mentioned as being in Revelations. The Ark of the Covenant and the glory of God are removed from the Temple, that means God's presence is no longer there. There is no indication he ever returned to the second one, depending on what you believe about the Incarnation.

I think that Pastor might have been wrong about you. I'll try to think of another one, I'll see if I can make the next one more challenging.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[USincognito]

Subbing. I am most interested in discussing Genesis 1-11.

KWC doesn't respond to me, but I want to point out I am referring to chapters 1-11, not verse 1:11.

 

[KWCrazy]

A good shepherd would also give his life for his sheep. Christ, the good shepherd, did exactly that. He is also saying that those who know Christ won't follow a deceiver because they know the true Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This frustrates the false teachers who push heresies like evolution because Christians continue to follow their shepherd and trust in the words of the Lord. The thief cannot lure the sheep away from the shepherd.

 

[Athée]

Genesis 1:11 is not a stand alone verse. It leads into 12 and 13. In verse 13, we read, "And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day." Evolution proponents quote this verse to show that God used a natural formation of grasses, trees and other vegetation. However verse 13 is the kicker. This "evolution" happened on the third day. The sun, moon and stars were yet to be created and there were trees bearing fruit. This is possible because there is already a source of light that is none of the above. Henceforth, that source of light is never again mentioned, so it stands to reason that the light BECAME the sun, moon and stars in an instant. Big Bang cosmology claims much the same thing, but dates the event many million years ago.

Sure, but the respondent specifically said 1-11 so that is what I was responding to. I'm not sure how tour response connects to the challenge in the thread so maybe you could help me out?

 

[Athée]

KWC doesn't respond to me, but I want to point out I am referring to chapters 1-11, not verse 1:11.

Oh I see my mistake. That is quite a large section give me some time.

 

[Athée]

Jesus is probably talking to people who know a lot about tending to flocks. Sheep know the voice of their Shepherd. A guy spoke at my church, apparently he had traveled the Holy Land quite a bit. He said he came to a well where sheep are watered and several flocks were there at the same time. He's thinking how are they going to sort them out. When they left they each sang this little song and their sheep followed them. Jesus liked to use things from peoples ordinary lives to relate things. When Jesus told the Apostles, get up and follow me, they just did it. Later Jesus would pray in the Upper Room, Father they were yours and you gave them to me. I think that means they were already in a relationship with God, they just did what they were used to doing, following the instructions of God as they understood them.

That sounds pretty similar to what I was saying

 

[Athée]

A good shepherd would also give his life for his sheep. Christ, the good shepherd, did exactly that. He is also saying that those who know Christ won't follow a deceiver because they know the true Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This frustrates the false teachers who push heresies like evolution because Christians continue to follow their shepherd and trust in the words of the Lord. The thief cannot lure the sheep away from the shepherd.

Without getting side tracked by the bit about evolution ... It sounds like I have passed this particular verse, or at least we are saying similar things about what it means.

 

[Athée]

Oh, so you do know a little something about the Bible. Your right and the context of Ezekiel just makes it more confusing, there are the same creatures as the four in Revelations. This one had me stumped for years but picked up a book by Billy Graham on Angels. Apparently these four are in the very presence of God, the other angels pretty much stand before him. It's a little bit of a stretch but these angels take the Ark of the Covenant to heaven, where it is mentioned as being in Revelations. The Ark of the Covenant and the glory of God are removed from the Temple, that means God's presence is no longer there. There is no indication he ever returned to the second one, depending on what you believe about the Incarnation.

I think that Pastor might have been wrong about you. I'll try to think of another one, I'll see if I can make the next one more challenging.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Yikes... I only got that one because of your hint about the 4 !

A question for you though... is it possible that the pastor was wrong about me personally but correct about atheists generally? That is if I as an atheist can understand the Bible, could he still be correct that atheists in general can't (not don't BUT CAN'T) understand the Bible?