My Dental Challenge

[Kylie]

According to the Bible, was Lucifer created perfect?

I'm not talking about what the Bible says, I'm talking about what YOU said. Back in post 120, you only said that God made Adam and Eve perfect. The perfection of Adam and Eve is all I have been talking about.

To paraphrase you:

You're welcome to start your own thread on that.

(And please do. I'll eat it for breakfast.)

This one is about Adam and Eve, not Lucifer.

 

[Kylie]

Wait a minute, that's a heck of a Catch-22.

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, yet they were disobedient, then God must have intended for them to be disobedient... but if God intended for them to be disobedient, then they weren't being disobedient, because they were doing exactly what God intended.

A lot of people believe that. Some of the Hasidic, Calvin, Joseph Smith. For me, why would God want them to do what He told them NOT to do? There is no other example of that in the Bible where He wants us to disobey Him. Does He not mean what He says, and say what He means?

Yeah. And how does that work?

God creates us to do the thing he knows we will do and that he intended for us to do, and yet he then turns around and punishes us? How is that the action of a loving God?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not talking about what the Bible says, I'm talking about what YOU said.

You know exactly where I stand on Adam & Eve.

Do you have anything to ask me that you haven't asked me before?

 

[Diamond72]

How is that the action of a loving God?

It has to do with Joint heirs in Christ. Jesus was without sin, yet He sacrificed Himself for the world. We sacrifice ourself for the sake of the redemption of Creation, or at least this world. Satan was thrown out of Heaven because of sin and rebellion, now he is here making a mess out of this world.

 

[AV1611VET]

God creates us to do the thing he knows we will do and that he intended for us to do, and yet he then turns around and punishes us?

Should He have punished us for NOT doing what He intended for us to do?

Suppose, in your scenario, God created Adam & Eve to sin.

But suppose Adam & Eve choose not to sin? should they be punished?

 

[Diamond72]

Just one rotation of the earth on its axis.

Where was God when He created the Earth?

5.4 billion years ago a day on the earth would have been around 5 hours.

 

[Diamond72]

But suppose Adam & Eve choose not to sin? should they be punished?

They would not be joint heirs with Christ. 2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"

In Genesis 1:28 man is to subdue the earth and have dominion over creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Where was God when He created the Earth?

Here.

5.4 billion years ago a day on the earth would have been around 5 hours.

There's no such thing as "5.4 billion years ago."

Only on paper.

 

[AV1611VET]

They would not be joint heirs with Christ. 2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"

I read where a famous woman, whose name I won't mention, was known to give aspirin to her patients, while they screamed in pain with cancer.

Her idea was that, the more we suffer down here, the more we'll be blessed up there.

 

[Neutral Observer]

I read where a famous woman, whose name I won't mention, was known to give aspirin to her patients, while they screamed in pain with cancer.

I'll mention her name... Mother Teresa

 

[AV1611VET]

I'll mention her name... Mother Teresa

Yup

 

[Diamond72]

Her idea was that, the more we suffer down here, the more we'll be blessed up there.

Then why does He comfort us if He wants us to suffer? Yet another paradox. Psalm 23:4 says, "Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me."

My father was a doctor back in the day when they did not hand out addictive drugs to people. He would tell his patients you may be in a bit of discomfortable for a day or two, but then you will feel better. The body has its own natural pain relief. Like the hormone oxytocin when a woman is giving birth. Interestingly the KJV uses the word "sorrow". Next time a woman gives birth ask her if she would rather have pain or sorrow. Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" Matthew 9:22 "According to your faith be it unto you."

If someone had a terminal disease and was going to die then they give them the additive stuff.
Proverbs 31:6-7, which states: "Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more."

In Revelation 9:21 Sorceries is translated from the Greek word "pharmakeia". This word can refer to the use of drugs or other substances for magical or spiritual purposes, and it is often associated with witchcraft or sorcery.

 

[Diamond72]

There's no such thing as "5.4 billion years ago."

Only on paper.

The same math that gives you a car to drive and a house to live in. So you do not have to walk and live in a cave. The same math that builds tractors to produce food for you to eat so you do not have to scrounge for food. My wife is from a third-world nation where they would rather have a carabao to pull a plow than a tractor. Yet people are always hungry and never seem to have enough food.

 

[Diamond72]

God creates us to do the thing he knows we will do and that he intended for us to do, and yet he then turns around and punishes us? How is that the action of a loving God?

In Romans 8 Paul says: "18 I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 23 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Pain is not actually in the Greek, just groan and travail.

Paul talks about this in 2 Corinthians 5 "2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling," The letter (B) represents the tent we live in. We seek to be a tabernacle so that God dwells in us. We need to be holy, sanctified, and separated onto God.

 

[Neutral Observer]

Paul talks about this in 2 Corinthians 5 "2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling," The letter (B) represents the tent we live in. We seek to be a tabernacle so that God dwells in us. We need to be holy, sanctified, and separated onto God.

And this unfortunately means absolutely nothing to me. Just mystic mumbo jumbo meant to impress the choir. Could've condensed the entire epistles down to "Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God" and just left it at that. But it's hard to form a religion out of an adage that any ten year old can understand, but that few of us can actually live by. So people make it sound gnostic and mysterious as if hiding some deeper truths, because let's face it we all love deeper truths. They make us feel less insignificant. But really the whole thing is just about loving thy neighbor as thyself. And all that happy ever after stuff is just an opiate to soothe the masses as Karl Marx would say.

But if quoting all those epistles makes people feel useful I say go for it, but don't expect them to impress the skeptics, after all, they weren't written to them.

 

[Diamond72]

And this unfortunately means absolutely nothing to me.

ok, sounds like you have a lot to learn if you want to be informed.

 

[Kylie]

You know exactly where I stand on Adam & Eve.

Do you have anything to ask me that you haven't asked me before?

Your position is not logically supported.

 

[Kylie]

It has to do with Joint heirs in Christ. Jesus was without sin, yet He sacrificed Himself for the world.

This misses my point entirely.

Why did God say, "The only way to do this is to kill myself"?

Satan was thrown out of Heaven because of sin and rebellion, now he is here making a mess out of this world.

So why did God send him to where he can mess with his creation?

 

[Kylie]

Should He have punished us for NOT doing what He intended for us to do?

Suppose, in your scenario, God created Adam & Eve to sin.

But suppose Adam & Eve choose not to sin? should they be punished?

No, you do not set up a system which depends entirely on people doing a certain thing to make that system work, and then punish them for doing what is needed to make that system work.

 

[Kylie]

ok, sounds like you have a lot to learn if you want to be informed.

Why is it that I get the feeling that when you say "learn" you are really talking about telling him what to think instead of showing him HOW to think and letting him discover the meaning for himself?