My dad has problems again

[chevyontheriver]

I cried really bad just awhile ago because some General Surgeon called me and was extremely pushy in insisting that she's not going to do the PEG tube procedure because he's "at the end of his life" and it won't produce a "quality of life." I feel that, even though she did outline the risks of the tube, that she was being unethical in her pushiness as if she was trying to get me to make a decision right then and now, when I was actually supposed to be having a meeting I have every week with two ladies , next week about "making a decision." Granted, the latter two ladies do have a bias but they were/are not even half as pushy as this one and the social worker was very gentle about it being my decision alone, but this darned phone call drove me to tears. She offered to meet with me tomorrow but I regret agreeing to the meeting, because I can't stand the thought of talking to her again.

At actual end-of-life a person cannot use food and water even delivered by a tube. BUT until that time, when the body starts shutting down, we have a duty to provide food and water, even with a tube. We can tell, approximately, when a person cannot benefit from food in a feeding tube. That's when they throw it up all the time. If they are not throwing it up it is their right and our duty to provide it. If they continually throw up food provided in a tube then they should be provided with water until and unless they throw that up too.

Medical people sometimes like to 'hurry along death'. But we need to provide food and water as long as a person actually can metabolize the food and absorb the water. Otherwise we are starving them and dehydrating them. That is cruel. And that's wrong. You need accurate information on whether they can make use of food in a feeding tube. If they can use the food they should be fed even through a tube. If they throw it up then just water. If they throw that up then nothing. That's just basic. But hard to figure without trying.

I saw a post from you about trying to find a driver's licence. A birth certificate or voter registration may also work. Don't panic.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I guess you’re right but I know that I was mad at the “negative nurse” when my mom was sick.

They need to get some bedside manners.

 

[FaithT]

They need to get some bedside manners.

Yes they do. I’ve had a couple of doctors over the years AND a counselor (who was a social worker) who were total jerks.

 

[Lady Bug]

At actual end-of-life a person cannot use food and water even delivered by a tube. BUT until that time, when the body starts shutting down, we have a duty to provide food and water, even with a tube. We can tell, approximately, when a person cannot benefit from food in a feeding tube. That's when they throw it up all the time. If they are not throwing it up it is their right and our duty to provide it. If they continually throw up food provided in a tube then they should be provided with water until and unless they throw that up too.

Medical people sometimes like to 'hurry along death'. But we need to provide food and water as long as a person actually can metabolize the food and absorb the water. Otherwise we are starving them and dehydrating them. That is cruel. And that's wrong. You need accurate information on whether they can make use of food in a feeding tube. If they can use the food they should be fed even through a tube. If they throw it up then just water. If they throw that up then nothing. That's just basic. But hard to figure without trying.

I saw a post from you about trying to find a driver's licence. A birth certificate or voter registration may also work. Don't panic.

My dad is not throwing up from the temporary feeding tube. As a matter of fact, according to the nurse today, my dad actually felt hungry. Today's nurse said how intelligent my dad is and how proud he is of me. I do see him delusional more often than I'd like but I think that he is being dehumanized and treated as expendable based on his age. Some doctors are not good people.

 

[Lady Bug]

Ps that doctor tried to convince me that the PEG tube is more risky than the tube he's on now, but I don't know enough about this issue. At any rate, I feel too much pressure from these people and it's getting to be a bit much.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ps that doctor tried to convince me that the PEG tube is more risky than the tube he's on now, but I don't know enough about this issue. At any rate, I feel too much pressure from these people and it's getting to be a bit much.

If the regular feeding tube works, maybe just keep that going? The PEG tube through the stomach maybe of the throat tube becomes a problem.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My dad is not throwing up from the temporary feeding tube. As a matter of fact, according to the nurse today, my dad actually felt hungry. Today's nurse said how intelligent my dad is and how proud he is of me. I do see him delusional more often than I'd like but I think that he is being dehumanized and treated as expendable based on his age. Some doctors are not good people.

Some doctors are not good people. Some think they are gods and that they have the right to say who lives and dies. Some think starving a person is a good thing to do. I've met good doctors and bad ones.

 

[Michie]

Ps that doctor tried to convince me that the PEG tube is more risky than the tube he's on now, but I don't know enough about this issue. At any rate, I feel too much pressure from these people and it's getting to be a bit much.

The problem I have is that doctors should not interfere with family decisions concerning care unless it does more harm than good. I know that PEG tubes require patients that meet certain conditions for a good outcome. Hopefully, you find out more tomorrow.

 

[Lady Bug]

If the regular feeding tube works, maybe just keep that going? The PEG tube through the stomach maybe of the throat tube becomes a problem.

The tube is through his nose and is not supposed to be there indefinitely

So, the PEG tube IS more problematic than the temporary (nose) tube? That is sad to hear

Some doctors are not good people. Some think they are gods and that they have the right to say who lives and dies. Some think starving a person is a good thing to do. I've met good doctors and bad ones.

This doctor does seem to be one of those types. I don't know for certain.

The problem I have is that doctors should not interfere with family decisions concerning care unless it does more harm than good. I know that PEG tubes require patients that meet certain conditions for a good outcome. Hopefully, you find out more tomorrow.

How do I know that she is being honest with me about it being more harmful than beneficial?

 

[Michie]

The tube is through his nose and is not supposed to be there indefinitely

So, the PEG tube IS more problematic than the temporary (nose) tube? That is sad to hear

This doctor does seem to be one of those types. I don't know for certain.

How do I know that she is being honest with me about it being more harmful than beneficial?

By getting a second opinion and doing your research.

 

[Michie]

Has your brother been communicating with the medical team?

 

[Lady Bug]

Has your brother been communicating with the medical team?

Yeah. He doesn't have medical POA but he talks to at least a nurse every day.

 

[Michie]

Yeah. He doesn't have medical POA but he talks to at least a nurse every day.

Well I think that may be causing issues. Depending on what he is saying or demanding of course.

 

[Lady Bug]

Well I think that may be causing issues. Depending on what he is saying or demanding of course.

Yeah, you never know. The thing is, in this rare instance, he and I are kind of wanting the same thing this time

 

[Michie]

Yeah, you never know. The thing is, in this rare instance, he and I are kind of wanting the same thing this time

I expected you both did but my concern is how he is communicating with the medical team.

 

[Susie~Q]

If your dad is beginning to feel hungry and is talking and telling the nurse how proud he is of you, he definitely needs to be able to have nourishment and water. Don't let any darn doctor tell you differently. It sounds like he is getting better.

Unfortunately, so many doctors could care less about the patients, especially if they are elderly, they are in only for the money.

 

[mourningdove~]

My dad is not throwing up from the temporary feeding tube. As a matter of fact, according to the nurse today, my dad actually felt hungry. Today's nurse said how intelligent my dad is and how proud he is of me.

I think this is very interesting, what today's nurse shared with you.
Obviously, she is talking with your Dad.
And it appears he is comfortable talking with her.

One of the things my husband did, was visit sick persons in the hospital.
He was very comfortable doing that kind of ministry, and praying with the sick.
And he would tell me stories, of persons who turned to God in their last moments.

Many times, it seems, persons who are not comfortable talking about God to family members, will be comfortable talking about Him to a caring stranger in the hospital.

We don't know how much more time your Dad has here on this earth, but we also don't know what persons are stopping in to see him in the hospital while he is there. No doubt, there are all kinds of doctors and nurses, and aides, and even cleaning staff ... who go in and out of his room.

As we continue to pray for your Dad, I am reminded that it is not unlike God in His Great Mercy to sometimes 'send' someone into the room of a sick person to talk with them about Him. About things like heaven and hell, and the love of God for them. And when very ill, sometimes persons are suddenly very 'receptive' to the conversation.

My prayers continue, that someone in the hospital will speak to your Dad about Jesus. What he hasn't yet been willing to hear from you, he may be willing to discuss with a caring stranger. It just sometimes works that way ...

 

[mourningdove~]

If your dad is beginning to feel hungry and is talking and telling the nurse how proud he is of you, he definitely needs to be able to have nourishment and water. Don't let any darn doctor tell you differently. It sounds like he is getting better.

Unfortunately, so many doctors could care less about the patients, especially if they are elderly, they are in only for the money.

I have to agree with what you've said.
Alot of medical care these days is about the money.
And 'if health insurance won't cover it, the hospital most times won't offer it', or even mention it.
That is what I have seen.

But, God always has His 'angels' in place, to help in these situations.
I'm not being a 'Pollyanna' in saying that God's people can be found everywhere.
And in my years in and out of hospitals with my husband's health issues, I'm sure we encountered many 'angels' ...
persons following and serving Jesus Christ ...
who seemed to be 'planted' in these institutions to be a blessing to patients and their families there.

In many ways, the world of health care does appear to have become very cold and uncaring.
But alot goes on in hospitals that we do not know about, and I believe alot of it is supernatural ... of God.
I am sure there are deathbed conversions that we never even hear about, but I do believe they happen ...
because God cares, and especially in the very serious moments of life and death that we find ourselves facing.

 

[Michie]

I cried really bad just awhile ago because some General Surgeon called me and was extremely pushy in insisting that she's not going to do the PEG tube procedure because he's "at the end of his life" and it won't produce a "quality of life." I feel that, even though she did outline the risks of the tube, that she was being unethical in her pushiness as if she was trying to get me to make a decision right then and now, when I was actually supposed to be having a meeting I have every week with two ladies , next week about "making a decision." Granted, the latter two ladies do have a bias but they were/are not even half as pushy as this one and the social worker was very gentle about it being my decision alone, but this darned phone call drove me to tears. She offered to meet with me tomorrow but I regret agreeing to the meeting, because I can't stand the thought of talking to her again.

Praying for your meeting today.

 

[mourningdove~]

The medical team is kind of reticent on giving me very scenario as to not overwhelm me but they are telling me things as they go along. I simply had a hard time sleeping. I was disappointed in one of my priests too, but that's another story. It's not unrelated to this situation.

Formerly, before HIPA privacy regulations, priests and chaplains would regularly randomly visit hospital patients and attempt to be a spiritual encouragement to them. But HIPA changed all of that. Now, priests and chaplains can't just go in to visit a patient unless requested by the patient. (Or, I suppose, if a family member somehow 'sneaks' them in. lol)

But seems to me there are always priests and chaplains assigned to do visitation at specific hospitals if a patient or family member requests their assistance. If you find yourself wanting some support for yourself there at the hospital, I would think you could ask the social worker to connect you with a priest that regularly ministers there. Perhaps he could privately meet with you sometime to talk, when you know you'll be at the hospital. It would not be too much at all, to ask your social worker about this possibility.

In these kinds of situations. and especially when faced with making difficult decisions, a visit with an understanding priest at the hospital can be very helpful in providing comfort and support to family members.