My Bicycle Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Why three years? The bikes have been left out in the open for three years, sure, but unless we know what they were doing before that, they could be much older. Perhaps they sat in the factory store for a decade - they'd still be 'new', given the vagueness of the word 'new'. Perhaps the individual parts - the wheels, the gears - sat in a factory store before being made into bikes. What then?

Are you trying to sound educated just to rile me?

I have a lot containing 100 brand-new shiny bicycles that I leave sitting out in the elements.

 

[Split Rock]

If I were buying the bicycle, I would consider it three years old. Would you consider it new?

No, I would not consider it three years old.

I would sell the bike according to its physical age, not its existential age.

That's why I chose 3 years. However, I do not see any practical difference between your use of the terms "physical" and "existential."

Is there a point to the question?

 

[Split Rock]

Are you trying to sound educated just to rile me?

I hate it when people try to sound edjucmacated.....

 

[AV1611VET]

That's why I chose 3 years.

Oops -- my bad.

I said I would not consider it '3 years old' -- I meant to say I would not consider it 'new.'

This is what happens when people would rather yak; mistakes are made, and the thread grows excessively long.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Are you trying to sound educated just to rile me?

I addressed that - yes, the bike's are fresh from production, but we're not talking about the bikes, we're talking about their parts. How old are their parts? The handle doesn't magically get younger or older when the final gear chain is attached, does it.

The bike may be brand new, insofar as its parts only just this second came together to form said bike, but how old are those parts?

Conversely, you may well be 57 years old, but the atoms in your body have only been there for about a decade. It's easy to see that you are 57 years old - the object we label as 'you' has been around for 57 years, and prior to that no object known as 'AV1611VET' was around to bear that label. In that sense, you are 57 years old. But your parts are of variable age.

If that is your point, I would have that it was so obvious as to go unstated - of course an object can have a different age to its constituent parts.

This thread is to show that a simple object like a bicycle can have two different ages: physical and existential.

The bicycle is, in my opinion, omphalos -- not embedded age -- but if I can get someone with an ... education ... to admit it has two different ages, then it should be easy to argue for embedded age, which demands two different ages.

Except we've already done that: we've already agreed that there are several metrics going on - the time since the new bike was forged, and the time since its parts were forged. The new bike is a day old, while its parts are older.

 

[Split Rock]

Oops -- my bad.

I said I would not consider it '3 years old' -- I meant to say I would not consider it 'new.'

LOL I actually read it the way you intended! Maybe we are synchronizing our thoughts... scary!

This is what happens when people would rather yak; mistakes are made, and the thread grows excessively long.

Not sure who that was directed at...

Anyway, so while I lean heavily toward three years, I can see how one could say it was new. Now... what is the point?

 

[Split Rock]

You know, AVET, instead of repeating these challenges over and over with slighty different wording, how about summing things up and explaining the point?

 

[Jazer]

Why three years? The bikes have been left out in the open for three years, sure, but unless we know what they were doing before that, they could be much older. Perhaps they sat in the factory store for a decade - they'd still be 'new', given the vagueness of the word 'new'. Perhaps the individual parts - the wheels, the gears - sat in a factory store before being made into bikes. What then?

I call that old inventory. That is quite a big range though. It does not tell you if the inventory has been just sitting around getting dusty or if it has been handled. With books they call it shelf ware. People have handled the book enough in the store so that it shows wear from reading. But it is still "new" in that it has never been sold. Although they try to sell returned items as new. It is common for women to buy clothing and then return it after having wore it for a night out. Some outlet stores have a section that looks more like used clothing at a thrift store. Only usually a thrift store is clean and washed. When they return clothing they do not want to wash it because then it will not look "new" anymore. It will have been washed and cleaned. For me I like to wash clothing before I wear it, because they put in chemicals to keep the clothing from mold and mildrew during shipping. I use to have a category of virgin new. Untouched and unhandled. So the item has never been exposed to dirt & oil from human hands. Sort of like Sheldon who has to put on gloves before he reads his comic books so he does not ruin it's collectors value.

 

[Jazer]

You know, AVET, instead of repeating these challenges over and over with slighty different wording, how about summing things up and explaining the point?

Isn't his "point" an attempt to promote his theory of embedded age? Like the energizer bunny he goes on and on even though he can not get people to buy into the belief. Actually I think it is reverse psychology. Most everyone seems to come to the conclusion that if there is a God then God plays straight up with us and does not try to trick or deceive us in anyway. If God was not happy with the results He would have put AVET and his theory out of business a long time ago.

 

[JustMeSee]

I have a lot containing 100 brand-new shiny bicycles that I leave sitting out in the elements.

After three years, they are rusty & dirty.

I then build a bicycle, using one part from each of the bicycles: a seat from one, handlebars from another, front tire from another, chain from another, etc.

Two questions:

1. How old is the new bicycle physically?
2. How old is the new bicycle existentially?

Seven days old for both answers. They were created last Thursday.

 

[AV1611VET]

Seven days old for both answers. They were created last Thursday.

Try omphalos.

 

[Split Rock]

Isn't his "point" an attempt to promote his theory of embedded age?

My suspicion is that these challenges are supposed to support E.A. The idea being if something can have two ages, then Adam and Earth can have "embedded" age. Problem is, it is comparing apples and oranges, since the bicycle (and its parts) doesn't have any age "embedded' in it. The reason I am asking him directly, is because if anyone brings up E.A., he just pretends the OP is all about his made-from-old-parts bicycle and nothing else. So, I guess that means there is no point afterall.

Like the energizer bunny he goes on and on even though he can not get people to buy into the belief.

LOL. True enough.

Actually I think it is reverse psychology. Most everyone seems to come to the conclusion that if there is a God then God plays straight up with us and does not try to trick or deceive us in anyway. If God was not happy with the results He would have put AVET and his theory out of business a long time ago.

Really? Like God put Islam out of business a long time ago? Like he put Mormonism out of business a long time ago? How about Scientology?

 

[Tiberius]

I have a lot containing 100 brand-new shiny bicycles that I leave sitting out in the elements.

After three years, they are rusty & dirty.

I then build a bicycle, using one part from each of the bicycles: a seat from one, handlebars from another, front tire from another, chain from another, etc.

Two questions:

1. How old is the new bicycle physically?
2. How old is the new bicycle existentially?

Oh, I do enjoy your little "challenges", AV. They're so diverting for a few seconds. I have a question for you though.

How did the bicycles come to be in the lot in the first place? Were they created ex nihilo?

 

[AV1611VET]

How did the bicycles come to be in the lot in the first place? Were they created ex nihilo?

Does it matter?

Let's say I'm a factory outlet, and I placed them there from inside the factory, just a few yards away.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Does it matter?

Let's say I'm a factory outlet,

If you're a factory outlet, can I be a steam engine?

 

[Freodin]

I have a lot containing 100 brand-new shiny bicycles that I leave sitting out in the elements.

After three years, they are rusty & dirty.

I then build a bicycle, using one part from each of the bicycles: a seat from one, handlebars from another, front tire from another, chain from another, etc.

Two questions:

1. How old is the new bicycle physically?
2. How old is the new bicycle existentially?

The "physical" part of the question is meaningless. The "existential" part is quite interesting... but this is something that you have been constantly ignoring for years now. (Are you ignoring it now anew? So how old does that make your ignorance?)

What you are presupposing is the existence of categories of clearly defined objects, and clearly defined "times" for the beginning within such categories.

But OllieFranz had shown just two posts into this thread that this presupposition is too simplistic.

So if the basic assumption of your challenge is false... what does that mean for your challenge?

 

[AV1611VET]

So if the basic assumption of your challenge is false... what does that mean for your challenge?

That you can't answer it?

 

[SkyWriting]

I have a lot containing 100 brand-new shiny bicycles that I leave sitting out in the elements.

After three years, they are rusty & dirty.

I then build a bicycle, using one part from each of the bicycles: a seat from one, handlebars from another, front tire from another, chain from another, etc.

Two questions:

1. How old is the new bicycle physically?
2. How old is the new bicycle existentially?

You Americans really tick me off with the things you do.

 

[AV1611VET]

You Americans really tick me off with the things you do.

-- Oh, now! We love ya!

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I addressed that - yes, the bike's are fresh from production, but we're not talking about the bikes, we're talking about their parts. How old are their parts? The handle doesn't magically get younger or older when the final gear chain is attached, does it.

The bike may be brand new, insofar as its parts only just this second came together to form said bike, but how old are those parts?

Conversely, you may well be 57 years old, but the atoms in your body have only been there for about a decade. It's easy to see that you are 57 years old - the object we label as 'you' has been around for 57 years, and prior to that no object known as 'AV1611VET' was around to bear that label. In that sense, you are 57 years old. But your parts are of variable age.

If that is your point, I would have that it was so obvious as to go unstated - of course an object can have a different age to its constituent parts.


Except we've already done that: we've already agreed that there are several metrics going on - the time since the new bike was forged, and the time since its parts were forged. The new bike is a day old, while its parts are older.

Why didn't AV reply to this post?