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My Alcohol Challenge

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TLK Valentine

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I happen to believe wine is God's favorite drink.

But not the kind you're thinking of.

Everyone makes God in their own image...

Jesus even fasted on His favorite drink.

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Good thing he didn't say that until after providing more wine for the wedding feast...

He certainly wouldn't be the first or last guy to swear "I'll never drink again!" after a party... ;)
 
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Loudmouth

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But with "wine" that's different ... right?

With "wine," you suddenly become a Bible literalist?

All you need is a simple understanding of why grape juice was not a commodity prior to modern times.

As an experiment, you could grow some grapes, crush them, and then put the juice in an earthen jar. Let it sit out in the hot fall sun for 5 days or so. Come back and give that grape juice a try. See what you think.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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But with "wine" that's different ... right?

With "wine," you suddenly become a Bible literalist?

As I wrote before, grape juice would be kinda anachronistic. It would be like saying he turned water into grape flavored Kool Aid. Also:

Question: "Did Jesus change the water into wine or grape juice?"

Answer: John chapter 2 records Jesus performing a miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee. At the wedding, the hosts ran out of wine. Jesus' mother, Mary, asks Jesus to intervene, and He does so, reluctantly. Jesus has the servants bring six jars filled with water and then instructs the servants to give it to the overseer of the celebration. The water miraculously turns into wine, and the overseer declares that it was the best wine he had ever tasted. In this account, Jesus performed an amazing miracle, actually altering the molecular composition of the water, changing it into wine. The point of the account is summarized in John 2:11, "He thus revealed His glory, and His disciples put their faith in Him." Usually, though, when this passage is studied, a side issue becomes the main issue. Did Jesus transform the water into wine (fermented, alcoholic) or into grape juice (non-alcoholic)?

Throughout the passage, the Greek word translated "wine" is oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol. Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol. There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

Read more: Did Jesus change the water into wine or grape juice?
 
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AV1611VET

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As an experiment, you could grow some grapes, crush them, and then put the juice in an earthen jar. Let it sit out in the hot fall sun for 5 days or so. Come back and give that grape juice a try. See what you think.
Better yet, I could pack it in snow, place it underground, submerge it in water, or drink it right away.

In your opinion, how did they preserve milk?
 
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AV1611VET

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If AV can get away with saying that wine in the Bible means grape juice, I can get away with saying Genesis is an allegory and "from the dust of the ground" hints at God-assisted abiogenesis.
Can you get away with the order of events in Genesis 1?

Can I get away with the order of events in John 2?
 
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AV1611VET

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As I wrote before, grape juice would be kinda anachronistic. It would be like saying he turned water into grape flavored Kool Aid.
Here is an excellent article, albeit long, on this topic, called the "one wine theory:"
Past Usage of "Wine." This restrictive meaning of "wine" represents, however, a departure from the more classical dual meaning of the word as a designation for both fermented or unfermented grape juice. To verify this fact one needs only to consult some older dictionaries. For example, the 1955 Funk & Wagnalls New "Standard" Dictionary of the English Language defines "wine" as follows: "1. The fermented juice of the grape: in loose language the juice of the grape whether fermented or not." This definition shows that forty years ago the loose usage of "wine" referred to "the juice of the grape whether fermented or not." It is noteworthy that even the more recent New Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language (1971) defines "must" as "Wine or juice pressed from the grapes but not fermented." This definition clearly equates "wine" with grape juice.

SOURCE
 
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Rhamiel

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why would you not accept that Jesus turned water into wine?

do you think anyone would bother to record it if Jesus turned water into grape juice?

it would be like "oh wow, Jesus you made wine, thank you.... (takes a cup and drinks and spits it out) what? this is just grape juice?!?!?! why did you make this? we all thought you were going to make wine"
 
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AV1611VET

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why would you not accept that Jesus turned water into wine?
Because drinking is a sin.
do you think anyone would bother to record it if Jesus turned water into grape juice?
Yes -- the story has another connotation:

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Can you get away with the order of events in Genesis 1?

Can I get away with the order of events in John 2?

Given how little you care about the Bible, I assumed you would do so without asking...
 
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