Muslims do not believe they are created in the image of GOD...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI3uTphBLfI
With Love,
- Jefell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI3uTphBLfI
With Love,
- Jefell
Muslims not created in the image of GOD?
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Philothei
Love never fails
This has to do with reading the OT as well as the NT... No way for them to understand Genesis... etc.
I prefer to approach it by the words of Christ....
"I am the Truth" and "I am the Way"... Christ is our key that unlocks the eternal Truth of the Father...
That of course has to do with the incarnation of Christ....
Christ points out to the Father his Father's revelation is in the Old Testament....where we see in Genesis that we are created in the image and likeness of God.
Christ gives credibility to the Old Testament as true scripture and revelation...
Islam always "accepts" the Bible by "cherry picking" in it.. I think that has been hapenning since Mohamed.... Christ as aprophet is nothing but that... void of any message as the Bible is corrupt... according to them... They poison their own well and expect anyone to believe them....
Thank you Jefell for pointing this out....
I prefer to approach it by the words of Christ....
"I am the Truth" and "I am the Way"... Christ is our key that unlocks the eternal Truth of the Father...
That of course has to do with the incarnation of Christ....
Christ points out to the Father his Father's revelation is in the Old Testament....where we see in Genesis that we are created in the image and likeness of God.
Christ gives credibility to the Old Testament as true scripture and revelation...
Islam always "accepts" the Bible by "cherry picking" in it.. I think that has been hapenning since Mohamed.... Christ as aprophet is nothing but that... void of any message as the Bible is corrupt... according to them... They poison their own well and expect anyone to believe them....
Thank you Jefell for pointing this out....
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Well Chimps are 99 % geneticly identical to us, does this mean Chimps are made in god's image too? Or does your idea of image refer to something else besides image?
It seems that Christians "cherry pick" too, based on wanting to justify behavior, or beliefs that they hold, but are not willing to compromise on.
Muslims have rationale for ignoring parts that are inconvenient to their beliefs just the same as Christians have their own.
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Catherineanne
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Certainly it means something other than either DNA or appearance. In my view, where we ressemble God is in the highest functions of humanity, which just happen to be the characteristics of God in Christ, ie
Loving
Compassionate
Generous
Altruistic
Just
Truthful
Forgiving
At our best we aspire to be all of these, and these are all characteristics of our God. When we emulate him, we reflect the fact that we are made in his image.
Or, for non believers, that he is made in ours. But our image at our best, not our worst.
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Ok, well image implies physical form. So I thought she probably was not refering to any sence of image when she said image. Kinda like "hearing the voice of god" when in reality you don't hear any voice.
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Philothei
Love never fails
Cherry picking in "theory" is different from cherry picking in practice. Compromising the beliefs does not mean compromising in the dogma.
Again you are trying to discredit Christianity through Christian practice.....what is new?
I was talking about Islam cherry picking what to "serve" as beliefs everytime they defend Islam...
Christians "do not ignore" as they accept the whole Bible as we accept it as TRuth.... There are very few "fringe" groups that they do not.
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Image can be of a physical or nonphysical form. Here is the Biblical interpretation based upon Hebrew. The red emphasis is mine.
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
Even modern dictionaries have this as one of their definitions. For example, Merriam Webster dictionary definition:
Main Entry:1im·age
Pronunciation:\ˈi-mij\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French, short for imagene, from Latin imagin-, imago; perhaps akin to Latin imitari to imitateDate:13th century1: a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing ; especially : an imitation in solid form : statue2 a: the optical counterpart of an object produced by an optical device (as a lens or mirror) or an electronic device b: a visual representation of something: as (1): a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2): a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen) 3 a: exact likeness : semblance <God created man in his own image Genesis 1:27(Revised Standard Version)> b: a person strikingly like another person <she is the image of her mother>So hopefully you see that the image does not have to be a physical form.
We have certain attributes of God that He gave us when he created. God is person--not human person, but a person nevertheless. How is that? Because God has persona--personality--characteristics of His being that define Him as God.
Our attributes are not the same level as God's, but they mirror His in capacity to perform from a conceptual frame. God loves...we have the capacity to love also. We have the capacity to reason and judge, just like God does, but we can't judge people, for example in the way that God does. We don't have the omnipresence and omniscience that God does.
Concerning hearing: to hear doesn't not necessarily imply a physical sound. It could be to understand something, to discern as well. When viewing the Bible or any other work, it is imperative to comprehend the context--both immediate and overall--in coming to a conclusion on what the language means.
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Originally posted by Rasta
Where does the Bible make that claim? Alternatively, chimps are not humans despite their close genetic makeup. Chimps don't know how to reason, among other things. Many things that they do are by instinct.
Well, let's not leave you out since you seem to be doing this when making your point. The issue with Muslims is that they have to by necessity, come up with beliefs to explain why their scriptures says something that is not historically true of Christians. That is what I think the post is about. For example, historically, we have great reason to believe that Christ was crucified and resurrected, but Mulims will ignore the compelling evidence even from nonsecular sources that agree that this happened. They will tell us that Jesus was only a prophet, when we can historically and scripturally show that this isn't ture. They have to lie about out historical views in order to justify their scriptures. This would not be such a big deal if it weren't for them trying to associate themselves with the God of the Bible.
Where does the Bible make that claim? Alternatively, chimps are not humans despite their close genetic makeup. Chimps don't know how to reason, among other things. Many things that they do are by instinct.
Well, let's not leave you out since you seem to be doing this when making your point. The issue with Muslims is that they have to by necessity, come up with beliefs to explain why their scriptures says something that is not historically true of Christians. That is what I think the post is about. For example, historically, we have great reason to believe that Christ was crucified and resurrected, but Mulims will ignore the compelling evidence even from nonsecular sources that agree that this happened. They will tell us that Jesus was only a prophet, when we can historically and scripturally show that this isn't ture. They have to lie about out historical views in order to justify their scriptures. This would not be such a big deal if it weren't for them trying to associate themselves with the God of the Bible.
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I'm not positive which claim you are speaking of. If you are speaking about my refrence to the word image, I am merely talking about what the word means.
1. a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible.
Agreed. Though to put this in perspective, there are more genetic differences between mice and rats, then there are between humans and chimps.
Well many things we do are by instinct as well. Though, you are correct, chimps can't reason.
That I cherry pick the Bible? Ok. I don't believe the Bible is true in any sence other than a unique perspective of the people who wrote it. Beyond that we have no way to tell what is true and what is myth. I am consistant with that belief.
I'm sorry, you will not find a single secular source that feels that any ressurection is historiclly viable, let alone truth.
I'm sorry, but that is not historical. You can scripturally show what you believe, and the Muslims can too. They are not attempting to represent Christian beliefs with their scripture, but rather their own.
Why do you say that? They just believe that Mohammed was the final prophet and set the record straight.
The Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of god, yet you worship the same god. The god of Abraham.
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originally posted by Rasta
I am talking about the Bible indicating anything other than humans were made in His image. If it does not include chimps, then your question is not revelvant.
Why did you not comment on the other definition that I highlighted? That one is the one that fits the context of scripture. The Hebrew word is the one that the text was originally written in. Any context needs to be derived from that instead of some other non contextual meaning.
The discussion is supposed to be about humans. Likenesses don't make distinctions amongst things. It is the differences that we use to separate things. 99.999999% alike can mean worlds apart in certain contextes. That is the case with chimps and humans.
All living things have some type of autonomous system (s); but humans have the highest level of complexity in terms of function. We can create things, change our minds at will, adapt to conditions almost at will compared to other animals. We can reason, think, use intellect, become wise, etc. Animals are not capable of this--at least no in any way that we know of. Humans have some type of moral code that guides their actions.
If that is the case, we can make the same claims about what you believe. Where is your proof of what you believe is correct, which parts are myth and which ones aren't? To make claims against Christianty doesn't resolve you of the same dilema. Somehow you and others think that discrediting something leaves you with THE TRUTH. Many people trust the Bible to be God's word because of personal experience and the testimony that obeying produces the fruits of the text of the Bible. We see these spiritual truths come to fruition. We therefore, believe that all of the untestable and unknows are true as well because we have seen God first hand do as He has said. It is not just some kind of intellectual trip that we are on.
Most secular scholars will tell you that Jesus lived and died per Bible. The don't have to believe that He actually died, but only testify to what is know per history. The thing that I want you to concentrate on is that the Muslims have to invent ways to explain things that contradict their scriptures. Early Islam didn't not have a polemics against Christianity. Much of what Muslims say today has been created to deal with the issues that they found once the Bible and Christians came into their lands. Before that, they had no clue about the Bible or what it meant. If you were to go back in time and confront Muslims during Mohammad's time, they would be dumbfounded at what many Muslims say today.
I have already stated the problem. They don't have a complete knowledge and understanding of Christianity to base their assertions on. When the conflict is shown to them, they cry Biblical corruption. When confronted, they can't give us a period of time that this happened or provide manuscripts of the original teachings they advocate existed. When pressed further, they resort to other taticss. This shows me that they are out in left field since there is not documentation anywhere to support their claims. Even the heretical christian documents don't support their claims on this issue.
I think that if you have been discerning the many threads around here, you can easily pick up on several of these issues.
The Bible doesn't not evolve around Muslims. That is the starting point. The promised Messiah was to be from the line of Judah, the lawgiver. That is why the Law rested with them and could only be changed via their lineage. The New Covenant promised by God in the OT had to be given through them. That is why the early Christians, who were Jews, were given this revelation for Gentiles and Jews to be under one covenant. Anot all Jews worship the God of the Bible. Those that rejected the New Covenant through Jesus are lost. Those that come to the knowledge of the saving grace of God can be saved via the New Covenant.
I am talking about the Bible indicating anything other than humans were made in His image. If it does not include chimps, then your question is not revelvant.
Why did you not comment on the other definition that I highlighted? That one is the one that fits the context of scripture. The Hebrew word is the one that the text was originally written in. Any context needs to be derived from that instead of some other non contextual meaning.
The discussion is supposed to be about humans. Likenesses don't make distinctions amongst things. It is the differences that we use to separate things. 99.999999% alike can mean worlds apart in certain contextes. That is the case with chimps and humans.
All living things have some type of autonomous system (s); but humans have the highest level of complexity in terms of function. We can create things, change our minds at will, adapt to conditions almost at will compared to other animals. We can reason, think, use intellect, become wise, etc. Animals are not capable of this--at least no in any way that we know of. Humans have some type of moral code that guides their actions.
If that is the case, we can make the same claims about what you believe. Where is your proof of what you believe is correct, which parts are myth and which ones aren't? To make claims against Christianty doesn't resolve you of the same dilema. Somehow you and others think that discrediting something leaves you with THE TRUTH. Many people trust the Bible to be God's word because of personal experience and the testimony that obeying produces the fruits of the text of the Bible. We see these spiritual truths come to fruition. We therefore, believe that all of the untestable and unknows are true as well because we have seen God first hand do as He has said. It is not just some kind of intellectual trip that we are on.
Most secular scholars will tell you that Jesus lived and died per Bible. The don't have to believe that He actually died, but only testify to what is know per history. The thing that I want you to concentrate on is that the Muslims have to invent ways to explain things that contradict their scriptures. Early Islam didn't not have a polemics against Christianity. Much of what Muslims say today has been created to deal with the issues that they found once the Bible and Christians came into their lands. Before that, they had no clue about the Bible or what it meant. If you were to go back in time and confront Muslims during Mohammad's time, they would be dumbfounded at what many Muslims say today.
I have already stated the problem. They don't have a complete knowledge and understanding of Christianity to base their assertions on. When the conflict is shown to them, they cry Biblical corruption. When confronted, they can't give us a period of time that this happened or provide manuscripts of the original teachings they advocate existed. When pressed further, they resort to other taticss. This shows me that they are out in left field since there is not documentation anywhere to support their claims. Even the heretical christian documents don't support their claims on this issue.
I think that if you have been discerning the many threads around here, you can easily pick up on several of these issues.
The Bible doesn't not evolve around Muslims. That is the starting point. The promised Messiah was to be from the line of Judah, the lawgiver. That is why the Law rested with them and could only be changed via their lineage. The New Covenant promised by God in the OT had to be given through them. That is why the early Christians, who were Jews, were given this revelation for Gentiles and Jews to be under one covenant. Anot all Jews worship the God of the Bible. Those that rejected the New Covenant through Jesus are lost. Those that come to the knowledge of the saving grace of God can be saved via the New Covenant.
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So many mistakes done by the person who is on stage.
There is nothing comparable to God hence those who claim humans are in image of God are false.
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I guess that you don't apply reason, do you? When the Bible speaks of image, it is not referring to a physical image; rather, it is referring to attributes that belong to God that he also gave to mankind. The ability to love, think, and create are attributes that God has and He also gave to mankind. Obviously, you don't uderstand what the Biblical passage means. An image does not have to be physical. Take note!
The error is for people to not understand the context of the Bible. There is nothing like God, but that doesn't mean that there is no relation or connection between God and man. I think that Muslims totally go to one extreme in their understanding of God. You make it seem that God is beyond comprenehsion or comparison. That would be a mistake on your part. We have a partial understanding of God. We know as much as He tells us. God relates to us in human terms. There is no way around it. That is it!
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Funny. You are not concerned about physical simularities, just what the Bible says? Why did you ask me?
Where did you post it?
For you perhaps.
Was image a poor choice by the Bible translators? I don't get your point here.
Ok.
Cool.
And among the lowest when it comes to flight, swimming, sences, running, and breathing under water. Aren't we so great.
You are just repeating the same thing.
You want to test the fact that I don't know what is true and what is myth? Ok I'll provide a demonstration for you to prove my point. Question: Did the kigndom of David exsist as reported in the OT? My answer: I don't know, we don't have enough evidence to know for sure, but it seems unlikely based on the evidence we have found.
Strawman. Show me where I claimed that. Thanks.
I know. That doesn't make it logical.
Every religion claims the same thing. You see truth in your faith cuz you want to. The person who practises Voodoo sees truth in their faith cuz they want to. Everybody has claims nobody has proof. I see a trend.
It's also known as confirmation bias.
Show me one.
This is false. Most historians will admit that there was most likely some dude (read human being) named Jesus who lived at the time. That is it. There is no evidence of any of the supernatural claims in the Bible. Not a single one. That includes but is not limited to the resurrection.
Just as you need to explain things that contradict yours. Hence, why apologetics was created in the first place.
Early Christianity didn't have apologetics either.
Ditto for Christians.
Christians don't have a complete understanding of Judaism either, but that doesn't stop you.
They don't think they exsisted, but rather that the words of god were corrupted by humans as they wrote the text.
Lots of religious folk make claims that can't be verified.
Ok. I don't read most of the trash that is on this forum.
So says you. Do you have evidence that it was not corrupted? No huh? So you're in the same boat huh?
The promised Messiah was also supposed to bring world peace and rebuild the third temple.
So you claim. You have no evidence that this is true other than your beliefs and some words written down. Same as the Muslims. So if you critisize them for something you are guilty of, it is known as hypocricy.
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Catherineanne
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You are mistaken.
Moslems call Allah the Merciful and the Compassionate.
Man is also capable of mercy and compassion. If we were not, then this name for Allah would be meaningless. This name, and his other names, show that man and God are comparable, in at least 99 ways.
Our mercy and compassion may not be on the same scale, but they may certainly be compared. The light of the moon can be compared with the light of the sun, even though all the light actually comes from the sun, shines onto the moon and is reflected back to us. In the same way, God loves each of us, our love comes from him, and when we love those around us we are reflecting something of God's love, however weakly and imperfectly.
In this way, man is made in the image of God, and reflects his attributes to mankind. This is true of all people, and all faiths.
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anatolian
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Quran 32:7-8-9 "He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay,And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid:But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!"This has to do with reading the OT as well as the NT... No way for them to understand Genesis... etc.
I prefer to approach it by the words of Christ....
"I am the Truth" and "I am the Way"... Christ is our key that unlocks the eternal Truth of the Father...
That of course has to do with the incarnation of Christ....
Christ points out to the Father his Father's revelation is in the Old Testament....where we see in Genesis that we are created in the image and likeness of God.
Christ gives credibility to the Old Testament as true scripture and revelation...
Islam always "accepts" the Bible by "cherry picking" in it.. I think that has been hapenning since Mohamed.... Christ as aprophet is nothing but that... void of any message as the Bible is corrupt... according to them... They poison their own well and expect anyone to believe them....
Thank you Jefell for pointing this out....
Do you see a similarity?
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anatolian
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Quran 32:7-8-9 "He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay,And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid:But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!"In this way, man is made in the image of God, and reflects his attributes to mankind. This is true of all people, and all faiths.
Do you see a similarity?
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Quran 32:7-8-9 "He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay,And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid:But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!"
Do you see a similarity?
Don't you see that you have similarities to God? You were just shown that. Why do you now try to ignore it? We have some attributes of God that reflect who God is; but these attributes are not on the same level with God. There is not way around that!
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