Muhammad Ali, is he really as great.....

seashale76 said:

Don't try to tell me that this type of thing is allowed in public schools usually. I know they're not- and you know it too.

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I don't know what 'usually' is, but when I was in high school, the Power Team came and lifted weights for Jesus at a mandatory assembly. 30 years later, they're still in business.

civilwarbuff said:

For the past week the press has lionized Ali as a great, wonderful, compassionate individual. Is that really true or is there another less tolerant and humanitarian side to him? We all know he was a great boxer but was his human side much less than than the media are proclaiming or is that an accurate portrayal. And please make sure you have some evidence to support your statements.

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His arrogant style was repulsive to me.

Larnievc said:

Why are you having a go at a dead man?

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Who cares.

Though, Kareem Abdul Jabbar is worse, because he rejected his own parents from attending his wedding since they weren't Muslim.

Landon Caeli said:

Who cares.

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"never speak ill of the dead".. I wonder why we do that? Why is it disrespectful to speak ill of the dead or worry that we might "desecrate" their graves or bodies once they're dead? Anybody have an idea what section of the forums I dump such a question to pry to answers?

Landon Caeli said:

Though, Kareem Abdul Jabbar is worse, because he rejected his own parents from attending his wedding since they weren't Muslim.

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It's almost as if some take their religious beliefs quite seriously.

GoldenBoy89 said:

It's almost as if some take their religious beliefs quite seriously.

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So seriously they deny their own conscience.

Whatever his faults, of which I'm sure there are many, the fact remains that he was an important figure for many different demographics: Muslims, blacks, black Muslims, boxers, anti-(unjust) war movement, etc. A convert to my religion said he was her first exposure to Islaam. He was likely this for many others in America as well. He had a profound effect with his firm stance and principles. Islaam teaches us that the biggest/greatest jihaad is speaking the truth to a tyrant and Muhammad Ali voiced his opinion and view of the truth even though it had big consequences . It is why I respect him so much even though some aspects of his life may fall well short of perfect. I was actually pretty disappointed with the funeral in the sense that it seemed like a party and not a time for reflection, prayer, remembrance of death. But at the same time, it warmed my heart to see so many Muslims from all walks of life to unite in prayer for him. It made me happy to think that he helped pave the way for Muslims and blacks in America today. And it showed that even in death, he served as more exposure (in a positive light) for Islaam. In a way, the funeral for me was like his life. Though there are less-than-desirable things about it, the positives outweighed the bad.

And I hope this will be the case for him in the Hereafter, God-willing. I pray that his good deeds outweigh his bad ones and, if they don't, that God forgives his sins out of His Mercy and admits him into Paradise.

seashale76 said:

Students are allowed to talk about religion at will in schools. Adults are NOT allowed to proselytize in public schools. Ali was an adult that was allowed to do so in a public school back when I was a student myself. It was not an optional assembly I could choose to attend or not attend. He spoke at length about his Islamic faith, I was given religious literature, a tract for Islam designed to get me to become a Muslim, but it was somehow ignored by those that should have known better because he was famous and put his autograph on it. Don't try to tell me that this type of thing is allowed in public schools usually. I know they're not- and you know it too. I was a public school teacher for too many years, I even taught about world religions, and I know how it is supposed to go and what isn't allowed.

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Actually, I pretty sure Christians have done this. I posted something about a teen suing. Because she didn't want to listen. But they may her listen anyways.

essentialsaltes said:

I don't know what 'usually' is, but when I was in high school, the Power Team came and lifted weights for Jesus at a mandatory assembly. 30 years later, they're still in business.

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My senior class in high school got them to come and perform in the city park, it was cool

ChristsSoldier115 said:

"never speak ill of the dead".. I wonder why we do that? Why is it disrespectful to speak ill of the dead or worry that we might "desecrate" their graves or bodies once they're dead?

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Superstition and/or old wives tales

ChristsSoldier115 said:

"never speak ill of the dead".. I wonder why we do that? Why is it disrespectful to speak ill of the dead or worry that we might "desecrate" their graves or bodies once they're dead? Anybody have an idea what section of the forums I dump such a question to pry to answers?

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One simple answer is that they are not able to answer back. The dead cannot defend themselves from slander or libel.

Goonie said:

One simple answer is that they are not able to answer back. The dead cannot defend themselves from slander or libel.

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Or explain/justify what they did in life.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:

Actually, I pretty sure Christians have done this. I posted something about a teen suing. Because she didn't want to listen. But they may her listen anyways.

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I'm not saying it doesn't/has never happened. However, you're acting like it's suddenly okay that it was done in Ali's case just because a Christian here or there has done it on occasion in the past. I mean, that was your point, right? Separation of church and state is something that should be adhered to and not excused when violated in every case. What I posted is actually relevant to the topic at hand- but just because you and others keep bringing up incidents of other people doing it too doesn't suddenly make what was done right.

ETA- my posting history on this board has always been one of being for adherence to this principle- even when it's Christians violating it.

civilwarbuff said:

For the past week the press has lionized Ali as a great, wonderful, compassionate individual. Is that really true or is there another less tolerant and humanitarian side to him? We all know he was a great boxer but was his human side much less than than the media are proclaiming or is that an accurate portrayal. And please make sure you have some evidence to support your statements.

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He was just a human and not good at all:
Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
It is a good possibility that he died without Christ in him!

Landon Caeli said:

So seriously they deny their own conscience.

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How do you know he went against his conscience?

Desk trauma said:

How do you know he went against his conscience?

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Because he admitted that he allowed Hammas to force him to do it:

... "My devotion to Islam was absolute. I even agreed to marry a woman whom Hammas suggested for me, despite my strong feelings for another woman. Ever the team player, I did as “Coach” Hammas recommended. I also followed his advice not to invite my parents to the wedding — a mistake that took me more than a decade to rectify."

did=365ec57d00c25df873be04fc2e561df679cdae5e;id=115116171765;key=jGlrXg0F6nD15lw6YOJH2A;name=wayofthesalaf

I believe that the Carpenter from Nazareth is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I believe He is the Savior of the world. It makes me sad to think how many impressionable people may have been led away from Him because of Mohammed Ali.


Now in the Bible we are told of a Man Who believed in Adam and Eve and Noah as being actual, historical figures. The Bible says He did miracles and told others to do things like raise the dead and heal the sick. It also describes His death and burial. Is there any actual scientific data to support those stories? Absolutely.

See Medical Marvel Beyond Chance, from a secular source, with a pediatrician giving his report. this one attesting to a dying child's healing which cannot be explained by modern medicine, and came after a relative laid hands on her and prayed for her.

See secular news reports about Val Thomas, dead for 17 hours but now also alive and normal after prayers from her family and her Church.

Here is some more documented, scientific, evidence, not nearly all of it at all. See CBN Dean Braxton. You'll hear his critical care doctor, rated the best patient care doctor in Washington state, saying "It is a miracle...a miracle..." that Braxton is alive, has no brain damage and is normal in every way. Why? He had no heart beat and no respiration for 1 3/4 hours! His family believed in divine healing and they and others were praying for him. Also see CBN Dr. Chauncey Crandall Raises A Man From The Dead.

Get Dr. Richard Casdorph's book The Miracles. There he gives medical documentation for miracles, mostly, but not all, from Kathryn Kuhlman's healing services. Casdorph came to Kuhlman's meetings to debunk her but turned into a supporter, as did other doctors. You can see him and other doctors in some of her healing services on YT. (She is now deceased.) Delores Winder is one of the cases documented in his book. You can watch her amazing story on YT with Sid Roth. The book The Audacity of Prayer by Don Nordin lists medically documented miracles.

On Andrew Wommack's vids you can see doctors talking about "miracles" too. Check out the YT vid with the opthamologist who says Yes, Ronald Coyne could see out of an empty eye socket after a faith healer prayed for him. You can see him doing demos. At the end of the book Don't Limit God you see a medical statement by a doctor saying that his patient used to have M.S. and diabetes but is now cured.

And btw do you think that Someone Who can raise the dead and heal people of deadly "incurable" diseases, Someone Who created time, space, matter, energy and you - needed "evolution" to make life forms? No He created them fully formed and fully functional in 6 days just as Genesis, a Book He always supported, tells you.

Then there is the Shroud of Turin. If you don't know, the Shroud is a linen burial shroud with the faint image of a crucified man on it. It is the most scientifically studied artifact in history. If you have heard that the Shroud was proven to be a Medieval fake based on carbon 14 testing, in the documentary Jesus And The Shroud of Turin you can see the very inventor of carbon 14 testing saying that the sample was invalid due to contamination.
The vid demonstrates many more miraculous features such as pollen from Jerusalem and faint images of flowers that are found only in the Jerusalem area during the spring, as at Passover when Messiah was crucified. With modern technology we also see that the Shroud has an x ray quality which reveals bones and dentition of the Man on the Shroud.

Maybe start out with a short vid, though,The Jew And The Shroud on Tedx, with Barry Schwortz.

In the 70s a NASA scientist noticed the Shroud's photographs had inexplicable, unique in the world, qualities. He got up a team of scientists, called STURP, to examine it in person in Italy. (No, the Shroud is not "just a Catholic thing" as the Vatican only came into possession of it fairly recently in history.) They used NASA, and other, high tech equipment with 100s of thousands of hours of research. Their findings are seen all over the net and were published in respected science journals.

The team was composed of 3 Jews, at least one agnostic and one atheist, and people of various faiths. They all agreed on these things: There is no paint on the Shroud and they have no clue how the image got there. It exactly matches, down to blood stains where a crown of thorns would be, the description of Messiah's death and burial as given in the Bible, what NT writers report. The image could not be duplicated with modern technology.

These miracles are not what many would call proof. But they are certainly evidence. In a court of law you generally rely on evidence, not proof, as the actual crime is historical and cannot usually be observed (unless there was a video cam.)

I pray for all who read this post that we will all meet in Heaven some day.