MP-EP updates?

[StanU]

Ukraine having its own church isn't even the issue here, it is the legitimization of a Schismatic group without having them repent. But sure, we are the ones politically biased.

Hehehe... oh yeah, sure, keep repeating that. Are you seriously saying MP actions are not politically biased?


If they weren't, they would have given autocephaly to Filaret, or failing that, Volodymyr, almost 20 years ago, and we will not have had this conversation.

Canonically, it was long the position of EP that Kyiv is rightfully their territory, left in MPs hands out of oekonomia. They have a point, there.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yeah; they confirmed their Primate's right to do that.
Seriously, this is grasping straws, and for what? To keep a territory across the Ocean in fold of the Empire, also across the ocean, by Church proxy?

the primate of Greece is Athens, not Constantinople. yes, the Greek Synod (not under the EP) says that the EP can grant autocephaly, but they did not recognize the OCU, and postponed any decision.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Hehehe... oh yeah, sure, keep repeating that. Are you seriously saying MP actions are not politically biased?


If they weren't, they would have given autocephaly to Filaret, or failing that, Volodymyr, almost 20 years ago, and we will not have had this conversation.

Canonically, it was long the position of EP that Kyiv is rightfully their territory, left in MPs hands out of oekonomia. They have a point, there.

That is the MP's prerogative. Whether or not they are politically motivated doesn't change the morality of the fact that the EP brought schismatics back into the Church (as if that wasn't politically motivated)

 

[☦Marius☦]

Hehehe... oh yeah, sure, keep repeating that. Are you seriously saying MP actions are not politically biased?


If they weren't, they would have given autocephaly to Filaret, or failing that, Volodymyr, almost 20 years ago, and we will not have had this conversation.

Canonically, it was long the position of EP that Kyiv is rightfully their territory, left in MPs hands out of oekonomia. They have a point, there.

As I said I agree that Ukraine should have its own Church, but there is a legitimate way to go about it, and an illegitimate. Which is why the most of other Patriarchs have backed the MP or stayed neutral.

 

[StanU]

the primate of Greece is Athens, not Constantinople. yes, the Greek Synod (not under the EP) says that the EP can grant autocephaly, but they did not recognize the OCU, and postponed any decision.

Yes, that one. Arch. Hieronymos. Are you trying to imply that the Synod authorized the Archishop to deny EP's right they just confirmed?
Straws get weaker by the minute.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Yes, that one. Arch. Hieronymos. Are you trying to imply that the Synod authorized the Archishop to deny EP's right they just confirmed?
Straws get weaker by the minute.

No, they authorized him to make a decision on the Ukrainian situation which they didn't decide on. The only straws are the ones you are inventing for the sake of your argument.

 

[StanU]

As I said I agree that Ukraine should have its own Church, but there is a legitimate way to go about it, and an illegitimate. Which is why the most of other Patriarchs have backed the MP or stayed neutral.

Yes. Legitimate way is to petition the Mother Church. Which is EP. Under different interpretation, it's straight petition the EP. Either way, that is exactly what was done.
Incidentally, MP was petitioned. Twice. They postponed the decision until their master in Kremlin gives its blessing, which is to say forever.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, that one. Arch. Hieronymos. Are you trying to imply that the Synod authorized the Archishop to deny EP's right they just confirmed?
Straws get weaker by the minute.

no, I am not. simply pointing out the fact that when they affirmed the right of the EP, they still refused to recognize the OCU.

 

[StanU]

That is the MP's prerogative. Whether or not they are politically motivated doesn't change the morality of the fact that the EP brought schismatics back into the Church (as if that wasn't politically motivated)

"Bringing schismatics back to the Church" is a heroic deed. St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre is glorified for that (only on smaller scale).
Se what you and yours are complained about? People being let back into the fold. Reverse Prodigal Son, here

 

[☦Marius☦]

Yes. Legitimate way is to petition the Mother Church. Which is EP. Under different interpretation, it's straight petition the EP. Either way, that is exactly what was done.
Incidentally, MP was petitioned. Twice. They postponed the decision until their master in Kremlin gives its blessing, which is to say forever.

And? Perhaps the MP thinks it isn't the best time for Ukraine to not have the support of the MP? That is the MP's decision, not yours. What he is doing is completely canonical.

And the EP is the mother church? The way you are using that is scary. The EP is NOT over the MP. What you are suggesting is contrary to Orthodoxy. Why not just go the uniate route as many other Ukrainian supporters have.

 

[StanU]

no, I am not. simply pointing out the fact that when they affirmed the right of the EP, they still refused to recognize the OCU.

Dude, even you must know how weak this is.

 

[prodromos]

Again, consult above-linked article.

Above linked article doesn't quote the canons. It merely interprets them, or rather misinterprets them.

 

[☦Marius☦]

"Bringing schismatics back to the Church" is a heroic deed. St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre is glorified for that (only on smaller scale).
Se what you and yours are complained about? People being let back into the fold. Reverse Prodigal Son, here

With repentance. The prodigal son repented.

 

[StanU]

And? Perhaps the MP thinks it isn't the best time for Ukraine to not have the support of the MP? That is the MP's decision, not yours. What he is doing is completely canonical. And the EP is the mother church? The way you are using that is scary. The EP is NOT over the MP. What you are suggesting is contrary to Orthodoxy. Why not just go the uniate route as many other Ukrainian supporters have.

EP is the Mother Church is the matter of historical record. EP baptized Kyiv and set up its jurisdiction some 600 years prior Moscow being built. The way how some seriously dispute that is, indeed, scary.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Dude, even you must know how weak this is.

not weak at all. a lot of clergy and laity in Greece have openly rejected the OCU, to include bishops.

 

[☦Marius☦]

EP is the Mother Church is the matter of historical record. EP baptized Kyiv and set up its jurisdiction some 600 years prior Moscow being built. The way how some seriously dispute that is, indeed, scary.

I'm not disputing the historic mothership, merely the way you implied it somehow gives the EP authority over the Russian Church.

Either way I am backing out of this debate. No fruit whatsoever.

 

[StanU]

With repentance. The prodigal son repented.

Oh goody, we have a reason to keep others away from Salvation! (reason is, incidentally, that people can't bring themselves to submit to a hierarchy joined at hip with a terrorist state bent on destroying their nation. Not in "Soviet times", now).
That is even more screwed up than the Pharisee and the Publican. "Lord, thank you that I'n not like those schismatics and anathemas".

 

[StanU]

not weak at all. a lot of clergy and laity in Greece have openly rejected the OCU, to include bishops.

And? If EP had a right, people who reject it are wrong, plain and simple.

 

[StanU]

I'm not disputing the historic mothership, merely the way you implied it somehow gives the EP authority over the Russian Church.

Either way I am backing out of this debate. No fruit whatsoever.

MP's rights over Kyiv See were granted on temporary and conditional basis. Which was revoked.

 

[prodromos]

(sorry, "South" Macedonia)

You got that wrong too.