[MOVED] Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

[bekkilyn]

How do you have "reverence for Christ" without valuing the people he values?

 

[Peter J Barban]

How do you have "reverence for Christ" without valuing the people he values?

Do you have any evidence to back your accusations?

 

[Peter J Barban]

At first, submission seems like passivity, just give up and let the leader do what they want, and you do what they tell you to.

However, there is a very active, even proactive part in submission. Your goal is to fit your mission under the leader's mission. Your sub-mission is to support your leader's larger mission.

The Bible is reminding wives that their mission is to help their husband succeed in his mission.

The husband is to sacrifice for his wife so that his wife can succeed in her sub-mission - he should never tell her to make bricks without straw. After all, he is helping her help him.

So, a wife of noble character will proactively figure out the best way to help her husband's mission without much guidance. Likewise, the husband of the noble-character wife will trust her to manage her sub-mission so that he can focus on accomplishing his mission.

And of course, every husband and wife's mission is under the mission of Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

The Bible is reminding wives that their mission is to help their husband succeed in his mission.

I completely disagree. Couples need to define and work together toward their shared mission (which, ideally, should in some ways reflect the mission of God). Becoming a married couple isn't about subsuming the wife's vocation, gifts, and personality under the husband's, but about a fruitful blending of both.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I completely disagree. Couples need to define and work together toward their shared mission (which, ideally, should in some ways reflect the mission of God). Becoming a married couple isn't about subsuming the wife's vocation, gifts, and personality under the husband's, but about a fruitful blending of both.

Your opinion matches modern culture, mine matches God's word.

 

[Paidiske]

Your opinion matches modern culture, mine matches God's word.

That's a false dichotomy. God's word also stresses mutuality in marriage, and that heirarchy is a result of the fall, not part of God's original design for marriage.

 

[bekkilyn]

Do you have any evidence to back your accusations?

There was no accusation. It is insight based on posts #269 and #270. Also, I very sincerely wish to know how a person can have reverence for Christ without valuing the people he values.

 

[bekkilyn]

That's a false dichotomy. God's word also stresses mutuality in marriage, and that heirarchy is a result of the fall, not part of God's original design for marriage.

The horror story only continues to grow with every post. It's really quite disturbing.

 

[Peter J Barban]

There was no accusation. It is insight based on posts #269 and #270. Also, I very sincerely wish to know how a person can have reverence for Christ without valuing the people he values.

You should not publish your imaginary insight into my character. This does not honor Christ.

 

[bèlla]

However, there is a very active, even proactive part in submission. Your goal is to fit your mission under the leader's mission. Your sub-mission is to support your leader's larger mission.

Are you suggesting a wife’s vocation is her spouse?

So, a wife of noble character will proactively figure out the best way to help her husband's mission without much guidance.

Anticipatory service is the outgrowth of intentional directives she perfects which enables her to serve his needs before they’re stated. That is a higher form of service which takes a long while to develop.

The most visible examples are Japanese geishas. They spend years honing their skills to address their client’s needs without utterance. And they learn the art of service. Few women do the same.

The notion of knowing what to do without input reflects questionable leadership or an absence of effort. I don’t know many who’d welcome that approach.

~Bella

 

[Archivist]

Your opinion matches modern culture, mine matches God's word.

My girlfriend and I are equals in our relationship. If we cannot come to agreement on a matter we compromise. It works for us.

 

[Isilwen]

My girlfriend and I are equals in our relationship. If we cannot come to agreement on a matter we compromise. It works for us.

This is the way it is with us as well.

My girlfriend is not the submission kind and neither am I one to want submission in my relationship.

There is no cookie-cutter way to do marriage. What works in one, may or may not work in another. I do not believe that God is honored when one acquiesces to another in marriage. I believe honor comes when there is a mutual agreement after the couple talks and comes to a compromise that is mutually beneficial.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Are you suggesting a wife’s vocation is her spouse?



Anticipatory service is the outgrowth of intentional directives she perfects which enables her to serve his needs before they’re stated. That is a higher form of service which takes a long while to develop.

The most visible examples are Japanese geishas. They spend years honing their skills to address their client’s needs without utterance. And they learn the art of service. Few women do the same.

The notion of knowing what to do without input reflects questionable leadership or an absence of effort. I don’t know many who’d welcome that approach.

~Bella

I don't have any comment on vocations and geishas. I am interested in explaining the Bible and then putting it into practice.

The wife's main mission is to make sure her husband's mission is successful. That is the essence of the relevant passage in Ephesians 5. She is to do this in reverence to Christ.

Proactivity was the key to my success as a young fast-food worker. The boss sent home everyone who was standing around waiting for orders. The boss gave me more hours because I was always doing the right things without being told.


How can a wife do this?
In the Bible, 1 Samuel 25, Nabal foolishly provokes David and his fighting men. As David and his men came to kill all of Nabal's men, Abigail interceded with gifts and praise to turn aside David's wrath. Nabal didn't know because he was drunk at a party. Her quick action kept her husband and his servants alive.

 

[Peter J Barban]

My assumption is that the Bible is God's word and that we should do what it says within our New Covenant relationship with God.

The Bible clearly shows in both the OT and NT that the husband is the head and the wife is the body, figuratively speaking. Just as Christ is the head and the church is the body. So the husband sacrifices for the wife and the wife submits to the husband. That is God's revealed will.

Now you may not like what the Bible says, but everyone should have the integrity to agree on what these passages mean. Their meaning has been clear for thousands of years.

You can follow them today and be blessed or you can go your own way and get whatever God has for you.

But please don't attack, mock, insult, or infer evil in those who by faith follow God's word.

 

[Isilwen]

You can follow them today and be blessed or you can go your own way and get whatever God has for you.

What would you say if I told you that we don't follow the submission teaching that could have been for that time and place, and God still blesses us?

 

[Paidiske]

Now you may not like what the Bible says, but everyone should have the integrity to agree on what these passages mean. Their meaning has been clear for thousands of years....

But please don't attack, mock, insult, or infer evil in those who by faith follow God's word.

There's an incredible irony here. You suggest that those whose understanding of Scripture differs from yours lack integrity, and then you complain about others behaving in the same way!

The biggest problem I have with your understanding is that it has been clearly shown to contribute to dynamics of abuse and domestic violence. Therefore it cannot be what God intended, because God's will for us is for our good, not our harm. I believe that some people hold to it, not realising the damage it does, and believing that by promoting it they're doing the right thing. But those of us who do know how damaging those attitudes are, can't stand by in silence and pretend they're innocuous when they aren't.

 

[bèlla]

The wife's main mission is to make sure her husband's mission is successful. That is the essence of the relevant passage in Ephesians 5. She is to do this in reverence to Christ

But she wasn't always a wife. Is she missionless until he appears?

Proactivity was the key to my success as a young fast-food worker. The boss sent home everyone who was standing around waiting for orders. The boss gave me more hours because I was always doing the right things without being told.

You have an incentive to perform well at work. You're being paid.

How can a wife do this?
In the Bible, 1 Samuel 25, Nabal foolishly provokes David and his fighting men. As David and his men came to kill all of Nabal's men, Abigail interceded with gifts and praise to turn aside David's wrath. Nabal didn't know because he was drunk at a party. Her quick action kept her husband and his servants alive.

A wise response to drunkenness is your example? Why didn't you cite Proverbs 31? Is it because it demonstrates female leadership and industry with little said about the spouse save his praise?

~Bella

 

[Peter J Barban]

But she wasn't always a wife. Is she missionless until he appears?



You have an incentive to perform well at work. You're being paid.



A wise response to drunkenness is your example? Why didn't you cite Proverbs 31? Is it because it demonstrates female leadership and industry with little said about the spouse save his praise?

~Bella

A single adult woman is free to serve Christ as she sees fit.

I have already quoted Proverbs 31 and my words still stand.

Maybe you should admit that no matter what the Bible says, you won't submit to your husband. Then I won't waste my time showing you what you do not want to see.

 

[Isilwen]

A single adult woman is free to serve Christ as she sees fit.

I have already quoted Proverbs 31 and my words still stand.

Maybe you should admit that no matter what the Bible says, you won't submit to your husband. Then I won't waste my time showing you what you do not want to see.

Is it not possible that submission was for that time and place?

Women were not much more than property at the time. Times have changed and women are seen as more than property now.

 

[Peter J Barban]

There's an incredible irony here. You suggest that those whose understanding of Scripture differs from yours lack integrity, and then you complain about others behaving in the same way!

The biggest problem I have with your understanding is that it has been clearly shown to contribute to dynamics of abuse and domestic violence. Therefore it cannot be what God intended, because God's will for us is for our good, not our harm. I believe that some people hold to it, not realising the damage it does, and believing that by promoting it they're doing the right thing. But those of us who do know how damaging those attitudes are, can't stand by in silence and pretend they're innocuous when they aren't.

If the men had loved and sacrificed for their wives as God commanded, their wives would not have been abused. You should blame those who did not obey rather than those who did.

My understanding is the same as the historical understanding of the church. To reject it is to reject all those who followed it by faith and say they were wrong.

And the same with the Bible itself. All those missionaries who brought the Bible and the Faith around the world, all those martyrs were passing on dangerous attitudes that contribute to dynamics of abuse and domestic violence?

You condemn all of them because of the sin of those who did not obey.