[MOVED] Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

[Isilwen]

There is also what I brought up earlier.

Some men just aren't leaders. I am one of them. I have no aspirations of leading. I have been asked to be a supervisor at work a few times, I said no each time. I am not that kind of person.

My wife, when I remarry, will be my partner, walking along side of me, not a step behind. She is my equal, not someone that needs to submit to me because I have male parts. We will compromise as my girlfriend and Info now. God has blessed us and I don't see that changing.

 

[bèlla]

Maybe you should admit that no matter what the Bible says, you won't submit to your husband. Then I won't waste my time showing you what you do not want to see.

Your assessment and behavior work well for your marriage. But its the antithesis of the oneness I seek. I don't view myself the way you see your wife. I can't subscribe to a philosophy that refutes my calling.

At present, there are no Christian fashion designers. If I followed your logic I'd need to quit. Because I'm meant to assist my spouse in fulfilling his mission. Mine is secondary in your eyes. That negates the light and lives I'd touch. It averts the glory He receives through my work. I don't understand how that's better in any way.

I think some men are responding to feelings of powerlessness through their marriage in deference to the cultural backlash we're experiencing. I believe they've fashioned themselves as lords and treat their wives as subjects. They crave deference and fealty from women. Some will use the bible as justification for their behavior.

In my mind much this hails from a place of smallness. That is weakness in my eyes.

~Bella

 

[bekkilyn]

You should not publish your imaginary insight into my character. This does not honor Christ.

And yet again you deflect. Interesting.

 

[bekkilyn]

The most visible examples are Japanese geishas. They spend years honing their skills to address their client’s needs without utterance. And they learn the art of service. Few women do the same.

Of course, most women probably aren't called to be geishas, so there's that.

I find it interesting that women are all supposed to be exactly alike with the exact same calling as every other woman as if "woman" is merely a single personality trait rather than a uniquely created human being in the image of God.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Your assessment and behavior work well for your marriage. But its the antithesis of the oneness I seek. I don't view myself the way you see your wife. I can't subscribe to a philosophy that refutes my calling.

At present, there are no Christian fashion designers. If I followed your logic I'd need to quit. Because I'm meant to assist my spouse in fulfilling his mission. Mine is secondary in your eyes. That negates the light and lives I'd touch. It averts the glory He receives through my work. I don't understand how that's better in any way.

I think some men are responding to feelings of powerlessness through their marriage in deference to the cultural backlash we're experiencing. I believe they've fashioned themselves as lords and treat their wives as subjects. They crave deference and fealty from women. Some will use the bible as justification for their behavior.

In my mind much this hails from a place of smallness. That is weakness in my eyes.

~Bella

I don't think biblical submission is as restrictive as you think. It really comes down to the couple and how God leads them.

For example, if your husband's mission was to be a writer, well that takes forever to pay off, if ever, so you could support his mission by working as a fashion designer to provide income.

There are a 1000 ways your fashion design career could be an asset to your husband's mission. Ideally, these are things you work out before marriage.

My daughter wants to be a famous fine arts painter by the time she's 30. She's got a realistic shot at that. Obviously any man she marries will have to take her dreams into account.

 

[bekkilyn]

Whenever I see someone use words to the effect of "the bible clearly says," it typically means they haven't spent enough time studying scripture.

 

[bèlla]

Of course, most women probably aren't called to be geishas, so there's that.

Extreme rhetoric requires a complementary example.

I find it interesting that women are all supposed to be exactly alike with the exact same calling as every other woman as if "woman" is merely a single personality trait rather than a uniquely created human being in the image of God.

You have to see that in light of his fall from grace in society. Feeding that absence is a must for many. They won't admit it. He needs her to tell him he's great, wonderful, etc. Because the world is kicking him in the gut.

I can appreciate an honest admission like that. But manipulating text is something else.

~Bella

 

[Peter J Barban]

And yet again you deflect. Interesting.

I am not going to spend time responding to your imaginary insights.

Instead of finding fanciful faults, how about building me up, spurring me on toward love and good deeds. That is what Christ wants.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Whenever I see someone use words to the effect of "the bible clearly says," it typically means they haven't spent enough time studying scripture.

There is also what I brought up earlier.

Some men just aren't leaders. I am one of them. I have no aspirations of leading. I have been asked to be a supervisor at work a few times, I said no each time. I am not that kind of person.

My wife, when I remarry, will be my partner, walking along side of me, not a step behind. She is my equal, not someone that needs to submit to me because I have male parts. We will compromise as my girlfriend and Info now. God has blessed us and I don't see that changing.

If you become a father, you will have to learn to lead them.

The three biggest changes in my life were becoming a Christian, getting married, and becoming a father.

Each step entailed a new level of responsibility and leadership. A wife and mother must also grow in leadership. I don't know any godly women who are not leaders.

 

[bekkilyn]

I am not going to spend time responding to your imaginary insights.

Instead of finding fanciful faults, how about building me up, spurring me on toward love and good deeds. That is what Christ wants.

Then you need to do the work. No one can do it for you.

 

[Isilwen]

If you become a father, you will have to learn to lead them.

The three biggest changes in my life were becoming a Christian, getting married, and becoming a father.

Each step entailed a new level of responsibility and leadership. A wife and mother must also grow in leadership. I don't know any godly women who are not leaders.

I wasn't talking about children. Then, I guess I wasn't clear. I am already a father.

When I speak of being a leader, it's being a leader with/around other adults.

 

[bèlla]

I don't think biblical submission is as restrictive as you think. It really comes down to the couple and how God leads them.

I have shared candid admissions about my relationship and how we engage on the thread. But you continue to believe I have a problem. When I've stated we view submission beyond the threshold you've acknowledged.

For example, if your husband's mission was to be a writer, well that takes forever to pay off, if ever, so you could support his mission by working as a fashion designer to provide income.

I would not work as a fashion designer to support his mission. I would do it because God ordained it. He benefits from my success but isn't reason to stay the course. God is.

There are a 1000 ways your fashion design career could be an asset to your husband's mission. Ideally, these are things you work out before marriage.

I don't think in the singular. How do we support one another's calling and fulfill our purpose through the union? That's my perspective.

My daughter wants to be a famous fine arts painter by the time she's 30. She's got a realistic shot at that. Obviously any man she marries will have to take her dreams into account.

Exactly. They don't fall away because you marry.

When you're in the public eye you have different considerations and must scrutinize suitors in light of them. Some men can't accept a woman in the forefront. It would bruise his ego. He wants the spotlight.

But money is a truth serum. You hear the homemaking spiel until the price is right. Then a different angle appears. Because comfort is appealing. They modify the rhetoric.

~Bella

 

[Paidiske]

If the men had loved and sacrificed for their wives as God commanded, their wives would not have been abused. You should blame those who did not obey rather than those who did.

It's not that simple. Because the abusers believe - and the kind of approach you're advocating reinforces this - that they have the God-given right to behave as they do. That they are entitled to her submission, and that they should require that, by force if need be.

It's not just the men who are the problem. It's the belief matrix that supports their behaviour.

My understanding is the same as the historical understanding of the church. To reject it is to reject all those who followed it by faith and say they were wrong.

And the same with the Bible itself. All those missionaries who brought the Bible and the Faith around the world, all those martyrs were passing on dangerous attitudes that contribute to dynamics of abuse and domestic violence?

You condemn all of them because of the sin of those who did not obey.

On this particular issue, they were wrong. That doesn't mean I reject my brothers and sisters, but I can accept them as brothers and sisters and believe they're wrong about this. Just as so many of them were also wrong by approving slavery, or war, or economic exploitation.

The church has been very slow to unpack the gospel's implications for the dignity and value and agency of every human being, made in the image of God. But that doesn't make it any less a fundamental part of the reign of God.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Then you need to do the work. No one can do it for you.

You really need to get over your personal fixation on my private life.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I have shared candid admissions about my relationship and how we engage on the thread. But you continue to believe I have a problem. When I've stated we view submission beyond the threshold you've acknowledged.



I would not work as a fashion designer to support his mission. I would do it because God ordained it. He benefits from my success but isn't reason to stay the course. God is.



I don't think in the singular. How do we support one another's calling and fulfill our purpose through the union? That's my perspective.



Exactly. They don't fall away because you marry.

When you're in the public eye you have different considerations and must scrutinize suitors in light of them. Some men can't accept a woman in the forefront. It would bruise his ego. He wants the spotlight.

But money is a truth serum. You hear the homemaking spiel until the price is right. Then a different angle appears. Because comfort is appealing. They modify the rhetoric.

~Bella

The only "problem" I am concerned with on this thread is the public expression of lack of trust in the Bible teaching on wives submitting to their husbands.

I hate to see people advocate disregarding the Bible because of stereotypes and misinformation. If we disregard every passage that has been abused, we will have no Bible left.

It is possible that you all have never seen a biblical marriage (one that intentionally follows all the NT instruction on marriage) and have no idea how it functions in reality. It is my humble goal to show how biblical marriage can and should work. (with the caveat that my wife doesn't want me to share too many personal/family details)

 

[Peter J Barban]

I wasn't talking about children. Then, I guess I wasn't clear. I am already a father.

When I speak of being a leader, it's being a leader with/around other adults.

Congrats on your fatherhood.

If you follow the word of God to the best of your ability, you will become a leader to those who seek the same and an enemy to those who are enemies of God.

If you can merely love justice, show mercy, and walk humbly with God, then people will be influenced by your actions. That kind of quiet leadership seems well within your desires, doesn't it?

 

[bekkilyn]

You really need to get over your personal fixation on my private life.

Then I suppose scripture isn't the only thing you're misinterpreting. Cheers, bro!

 

[Paidiske]

The only "problem" I am concerned with on this thread is the public expression of lack of trust in the Bible teaching on wives submitting to their husbands.

I hate to see people advocate disregarding the Bible because of stereotypes and misinformation. If we disregard every passage that has been abused, we will have no Bible left.

It is possible that you all have never seen a biblical marriage (one that intentionally follows all the NT instruction on marriage) and have no idea how it functions in reality. It is my humble goal to show how biblical marriage can and should work. (with the caveat that my wife doesn't want me to share too many personal/family details)

Nobody is advocating disregarding the Bible. Disagreements about how to understand and apply particular passages do not amount to one group or the other "disregarding" Scripture. On the contrary, I seek to build my marriage, my life and my ministry on a solidly Scriptural foundation, and so do most Christians who share similar views of marriage.

But it's true that I have certainly never seen a hierarchical/complementarian marriage along the lines you describe which was healthy for everyone concerned. The healthy marriages I have seen, where both spouses and their children flourished, and the family contributed positively to their community, were ones where leadership, control and power were shared and negotiated realities.

And I don't think you can convincingly demonstrate something else within the limitations of this medium, not least because we only have your side of the story!

 

[Peter J Barban]

Nobody is advocating disregarding the Bible. Disagreements about how to understand and apply particular passages do not amount to one group or the other "disregarding" Scripture. On the contrary, I seek to build my marriage, my life and my ministry on a solidly Scriptural foundation, and so do most Christians who share similar views of marriage.

But it's true that I have certainly never seen a hierarchical/complementarian marriage along the lines you describe which was healthy for everyone concerned. The healthy marriages I have seen, where both spouses and their children flourished, and the family contributed positively to their community, were ones where leadership, control and power were shared and negotiated realities.

And I don't think you can convincingly demonstrate something else within the limitations of this medium, not least because we only have your side of the story!

1. I agree with your final point that the medium limits the effectiveness of my message.

2. I am grieved by this disregard for scripture on a Christian forum.

Here is why I say you all disregard scripture:

I don't remember any of you examining the most relevant scriptures regarding a wife's submission to her husband in reverence to Christ with the intent of putting them into practice.

Instead, people are disregarding this scripture and in fact advising people not to follow it.

I would love to discuss what "wives submit" meant in its original context and how we can apply it today. Any takers?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Then I suppose scripture isn't the only thing you're misinterpreting. Cheers, bro!

I am putting you on my ignore list.