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bèlla

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An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.
 

Citizen of the Kingdom

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A favorite old study, it was my first post when I joined CF.

The True Bride of Christ

The church came out from Jesus as Eve came out of Adam's side. Not created but built up. God is interested only in building His eternal dwelling. This is the governing vision and God's heart's desire is to dwell among us.

The bride is submissive to her Husband, goes to Him with all her questions, is as mute as a lamb having only the Word of God as her only weapon.

The seed of the promise was to come thru Sarah (grace) and not Hagar (law) Galatians 4:21-31

The Bride is also representative of the follower of the Lord 1 Peter 3:5-6

We, as true overcomers, the bride, are the daughter's of Sarah: Galatians 4:28

Not just children of Grace (through Sarah) but of Faith (through Abraham) Galatians 3:29

Not the children of the law (Hagar) but children of grace (Sarah) both being children of Abraham Romans 4:13

Who is the Bride? Look to Galatians 3:28

Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker was God. That was his faith and we are Abraham's (thru Sarah) children and therefore rightful heirs when we look to the builder of faith to overcome Hebrews 11:10

That is the true New Jerusalem, the Bride.
We are the NEW CREATION 2 Corinthians 5:17, 2 Corinthians 6: Galatians 6:15-18

I love the verses about Hagar and Sarah. Both had promises from God, but only one had the spiritual inheritance given to their offspring.

THE MOTHER AND GRACE ARE THE SAME THING
Galatians 4:21-31
The Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother, the metropolis of Christianity, or rather the state of liberty into which all true believers are brought.

Jerusalem which is above is the spiritual Jerusalem, the true church of God.

The word rendered "above" (anw) means, properly, up above, that which is above; heavenly, celestial,
Colossians 3:1-2
Rules for Holy Living
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
John 8:23
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world

Here it means, the heavenly or celestial Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:2: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God, out of heaven."
Hebrews 12:22: "Ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

Here it is used to denote the church, as being of heavenly origin.

Is free. The spirit of the gospel is that of freedom.

It is freedom from sin, freedom from the bondage of rites and customs, and it promotes freedom for all in Christ.
Galatians 4:7
So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

The House Being Built = New Jerusalem
1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Such a life shall constantly proclaim his praise--as the sun, the moon, the stars, the hills, the streams, the flowers do, showing what God does. The consistent life of a devoted Christian is a constant setting forth of the praise of God, showing to all that the God who has made them such is worthy to be loved.

Barnes' Notes on 1 Peter 2:9
That ye should show forth the praises of him - Margin, "virtues." The Greek word (a??et?` arete¯) means properly "good quality, excellence" of any kind. It means here the excellences of God - His goodness, His wondrous deeds, or those things which make it proper to praise Him. This shows one great object for which they were redeemed. It was that they might proclaim the glory of God, and keep up the remembrance of His wondrous deeds in the earth. ...
Who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light - Ephesians 4:1. Darkness is the emblem of ignorance, sin, and misery, and refers here to their condition before their conversion; light is the emblem of the opposite, and is a beautiful representation of the state of those who are brought to the knowledge of the gospel. Acts of the Apostles 26:18.
 
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bekkilyn

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I think a big part of what Christians get wrong is refusing to admit that love and submission here are the same. It's not a one-sided duty placed only on the wife alone. When we look at what love actually means, as in a Christ-like love, then we have no choice but to realize that men are not excluded from submission, and that it's not meant to be a burden but a joy...for both, to respect one another, and to consider the needs of the other even before one's own needs, in the same way as Christ.

And then we ultimately come to understand that Paul isn't really speaking about human marriage at all, but instead of the mystery of Christ and the church.
 
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mkgal1

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but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?
Yes!!!

A one-way relationship isn't love. If both people cannot feel free to express themselves and trust they'll be heard - that isn't love.

This is such a great point (and to get personal - this is just what led me out of attending church where I'd been very involved for over 20 years).
 
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bèlla

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I think it's important to parse spiritual matters with a conscious understanding of personal bias and interests. The dictum of submitting to one's spouse can't be addressed without acknowledging the internal elements and experiences that influence your perspective. Whether it falls on the side of mutuality or an imbalance of some sort.

Importing head of household beliefs and standards and calling it submission is disingenuous. That's a different animal. It's fine to admit the biblical precedent while acknowledging a personal preference for a lifestyle that mimics the 1950s and so on.

~Bella
 
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OldWiseGuy

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"Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. "

Found it fer ya. ;)

Titus 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."
 
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bekkilyn

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Found it fer ya. ;)

Titus 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

Sure, they learn to keep their gaggles of geese at home, rather than letting them roam all over town frightening all of the gardeners and shopkeepers.

Or of course it could mean about a gazillion other things that we could also write into scripture using our 21st century lenses and biases while completely disregarding the culture of the times. :)
 
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mkgal1

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Found it fer ya. ;)

Titus 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."
That can also be interpreted to mean "head of household " or "the (watch or) keeper of a house".
 
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Lord Vega

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An interesting article on biblical submission. The author raises some important points. —courtesy of True Love Dates

I ended up writing the following blog post, to express some of my concerns regarding the whole “submission culture” that we see in Christian communities, and posed a few important questions for all of us to chew on:

HAVE WE FOCUSED TOO MUCH ON SUBMISSION, AND TOO LITTLE ON LOVE?

As a Licensed Professional Counselor and relationship specialist, the truth of the matter is that I’ve seen this concept of “submission” defined and redefined in so many ways. And sadly, I’ve seen it used to fulfill selfish agendas and aid in manipulation, and at times, even abuse. As a Christian I’ve grown up in conservative circles hearing conversation after conversation about a “submissive wife”, but why is it that we’ve focused so much on submission, yet so little on the idea of establishing a loving marriage? Don’t the two go hand-in-hand?

As I look through Scripture, and even zoom-in on the Ephesians 5 passage where all this content stems, I see so much more about love than submission. In fact, the word “love” is used in some way, shape or form more than TWICE as much as the word submission in the referenced passage. There is a significant umbrella of love that is foundational to this concept, but so many times it gets looked over. We PREACH to the women about submission, yet all-the-while neglecting to TEACH the men about love.

Training a wife to submit to an unloving husband is like training a child to swim without water – it simply misses the mark, because there’s so much more to it than the superficial strokes.

Too many women have been bogged down in unhealthy and dangerous relationships yet answered with the simple concept of “submission”, rather than getting the REAL help they need to tackle and heal the root problems in their marriage. I’m just going to say it: there’s more to a healthy marriage than submission…and that more is found in the unconditional, life-giving, marriage-nourishing LOVE of Christ that has to be both given and received by husband and wife. Maybe it’s time we zoom in on that.

HAVE WE PLACED OUR OWN CULTURAL GENDER ROLES ON A SPIRITUAL CONCEPT?

Another thing I found myself questioning throughout the show was the idea that “submission” meant that a wife learn to be a good homemaker. I can confidently say I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture. Now granted, with reality TV, I am aware that there are limitations to what is portrayed and displayed (a.k.a edited out) on the screen, but one theme that kept shining through this particular show is the idea of creating “a happy husband” through cooking, cleaning, laundry, and sex.

I won’t deny that most men, my husband included, love and appreciate the things their wives do to show them love (often including cooking, cleaning, laundry and sex). And in fact, I LOVE doing those things for my husband!

But isn’t there a difference between acts of service toward our spouse, and the biblical concept of women submitting to their husbands!? Could it be that we have placed our own cultural gender roles on a spiritual concept? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding and absolute: YES!! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

I truly believe we’ve done the concept of biblical submission a terrible disservice by lumping it into the category of simply being a good homemaker. Not only so, but I believe that many women, who aren’t necessarily gifted in this way, may feel slighted and even offended by the thought that the reflection of their willingness to submit to their husbands is measured by the cleanliness of their house, the pile of their laundry, or the quality of their cooking. Which leads me to my last thought…

HAVE WE FOCUSED ON SUPERFICIAL ACTIONS WITHOUT TACKLING THE HEART OF THE ISSUE?

I won’t deny that biblical submission is an important topic, but I revolt against the mentality that it’s measured by a certain list of superficial things. I think deep down, at the heart of biblical submission is a woman’s ability and willingness to TRUST her husband in the give-and-take relationship of marriage.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

As a woman, I know the tendency I have deep in my heart to just “take control” of any and every situation. But part of learning to be a wife was learning to let my will align with the will of my husband’s, as the two of us became one. And in order for me to unite with him, whether it be in lifestyle choices, decision making, intimacy, or parenting-issues, I had to learn to trust him in a way that, up until marriage, I had only done with God.

I had to learn to let go of my control issues, by learning to take into consideration someone else’s will, desires, and wants. This is where trust was SO huge. And it is only because of my love and submission to Jesus, paired with my husband’s love and submission to Jesus, that I was and am able to continually trust in his love and actions toward me.

Just listen to the unbelievable and challenging call to husbands in these next few verses, right after the concept of submission is presented for the first time:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What I’m trying to say here is that there is so much more to the concept of women submitting to their husbands in marriage than what we sometimes present in Christian culture.

As we see in the verses above, there is so much mutual respect, mutual love, and even mutual submission that HAS TO EXIST in a relationship in order for this process to truly work. It’s not about the laundry, the dishes, the finances, the sex, or the “last word” on decisions…more than anything, it’s about learning to trust, to respect, and ultimately, to love one another, as Christ has loved us.

And the thing about real love is this: you don’t have to constantly have your own back, when you know that someone else has your back better than you ever could! In the biblical sense of the term submission, you learn to let go, knowing that your husband loves, nurtures, and cares for you just as much as he loves himself and that your desires, opinions, and preferences will be heard! When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, true biblical submission is never one-sided, but in fact, it’s always triangular: Christ pours into us as we pour into one another, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. How beautiful is that?!

Imagine what could happen if we as a culture focused less on the term “submission”, and more on learning to become like Jesus through our actions, our habits, our communication styles, our finances, our sex-lives, and even our emotional intimacy? Imagine what our marriages would look like if we learned to be the closest reflection to Jesus our spouse would ever see?

I don’t know about you, but I’m all for that model of biblical marriage! May the Lord teach us to love, just as we’ve been loved by Him. And may that love impact our relationships, our marriages, our families, and even our world.

Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian wives submitting to their husbands, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” women want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their husband (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a woman!
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Found it fer ya. ;)

Titus 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."
Likewise usually means likewise. The path should always reveal itself.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sure, they learn to keep their gaggles of geese at home, rather than letting them roam all over town frightening all of the gardeners and shopkeepers.

Or of course it could mean about a gazillion other things that we could also write into scripture using our 21st century lenses and biases while completely disregarding the culture of the times. :)

No need to explain it away, just ignore it. ;)
 
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mkgal1

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Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian wives submitting to their husbands, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” women want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their husband (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a woman!
Wow. Talk about painting with a broad brush.
 
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Sure, they learn to keep their gaggles of geese at home, rather than letting them roam all over town frightening all of the gardeners and shopkeepers.

Or of course it could mean about a gazillion other things that we could also write into scripture using our 21st century lenses and biases while completely disregarding the culture of the times. :)
That’s strictly if the ganders have a gaggle of geese tho, presumably?
 
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bekkilyn

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Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian wives submitting to their husbands, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” women want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their husband (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a woman!

Let's look at this statement from a different perspective...

Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian husbands submitting to their wives, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” men want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their wife (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a man!

And since I'm on a good goose roll, there is that whole what is good for the goose is good for the gander type of thing, right? :)
 
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bèlla

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Maybe you have an issue with godly Christian wives submitting to their husbands, but what is the alternative? “Liberated” women want to focus on their careers above their families, they accumulate a bus load of sexual immorality partners prior to meeting their husband (not to mention all the diseases that come with that), and they think divorce is acceptable and will be inclined to initiate a breakup of the marriage whenever they feel unsatisfied. I certainly wouldn’t want to marry such a woman!

Not at all. But I recognize my proclivity for submission is a result of DNA and personal experience. I don't expect women to mimic my behavior. I can separate the personal elements from the spiritual and see how each contributed to my makeup.

~Bella
 
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Too many women these days dress immodestly. They wear makeup, dress in miniskirts, and have clothing that reveals too much skin. It would be a great idea if Christian women started dressing like Muslim women.

You don't think makeup is appropriate? I have a calling to fashion design and I assure you God isn't creating burkas! Do you know any Muslim women?

~Bella
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
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I think a big part of what Christians get wrong is refusing to admit that love and submission here are the same. It's not a one-sided duty placed only on the wife alone. When we look at what love actually means, as in a Christ-like love, then we have no choice but to realize that men are not excluded from submission, and that it's not meant to be a burden but a joy...for both, to respect one another, and to consider the needs of the other even before one's own needs, in the same way as Christ.

And then we ultimately come to understand that Paul isn't really speaking about human marriage at all, but instead of the mystery of Christ and the church.

The implication of that reasoning is that Christ submits to the church...

...but Christ's love for the church and the church's submission to Christ are not the same thing.
 
  • Agree
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