[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

5thKingdom said:

So you disagree with the BIBLE when it says these "Beasts"
represent "Kingdoms" of ten "kings/horns" or ten "virgins".
Gee... I wonder who is correct Dougggg or the Word of God?
I will go with the Word of God.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The Fourth Beast shall be the Fourth Kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all Kingdoms [Beasts],
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and
break it in pieces.

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Only one of the four kingdoms has the ten kings, represented by the ten horns. The ten kings are end times kings of the fourth kingdom.

Did you not also read that the four beasts are four kings?

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Why The Experts Disagree

All readers please consider the following:
God has just one true interpretation for Apocalyptic Prophecy (Dan. & Rev.)

The earth’s population is over 7 billion, made up of many cultures and
diverse religions, of which Christians only make up 25%

There are hundreds of interpretation which have been circulated since John wrote Rev. In 90 A.D.

So how can one determine what one is the correct interpretation?

Please consider the enclosed link, here you will discover, “Why the Experts Disagree” and discover the four laws God built into the prophecies of Daniel and Rev., so that they could be understood correctly by all, when the appointed time should arrive.

Rules of Interpretation are Required to Understand Apocalyptic Prophecy

Douggg said:

The for a season and a time in Daniel 7 regarding the three kingdoms, is just a way of saying for a little while longer. Which is the millennium period in Revelation 20.

The end times nations (like Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14:17-18) of what was formerly the babylonian empire, the medes-persian empire, the greek empire - will during the 1000 yr millennium be under Jesus's worldwide rule of the nations with a rod of iron

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Let me see if I understand you..
You are saying AFTER the Fourth Kingdom is
"given to the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12]
which is the SAME EVENT as the Revelation Beast
being "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Re 19:20]


The PEOPLE from the Egyptian Empire and the
Babylonian Empire and the Persian Empire and
the Grecian Empire CONTINUE TO LIVE ON EARTH?


So you think the TIME between the END of the Second Woe
and the START of the Third Woe is 1000 years...
even when the Bible says "there shall be time no longer"...
as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"?

The Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" for 1000 years?
And that is AFTER there is "time no longer"... Really?

Rev 11:14-15
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 10:6-7
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God
should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


You said:
I don't subscribe to your theory about there being ten virgins in that manner, nor a great tribulation kingdom.


So you think it was ME that wrote Matthew 25:1?
And you say that so you can REJECT what Jesus NAMED.
These are the Words of JESUS buddy (they are not my words)

How many passages of Scripture do you REJECT?

Mat 25:1 Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.



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5thKingdom said:

Let me see if I understand you..
You are saying AFTER the Fourth Kingdom is
"given to the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12]
which is the SAME EVENT as the Revelation Beast
being "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Re 19:20]

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At the same time, but I would not call it the same event.

5thKingdom said:

The PEOPLE from the Egyptian Empire and the
Babylonian Empire and the Persian Empire and
the Grecian Empire CONTINUE TO LIVE ON EARTH?

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No, modern day Egypt, that was once part of the Greek Empire, the Babylonian, Medes and persian empires.

5thKingdom said:

So you think the TIME between the END of the Second Woe
and the START of the Third Woe is 1000 years...
even when the Bible says "there shall be time no longer"...
as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"?

Click to expand...

No, I don't. And don't know where you would even get the idea that I did.

I have the timing of the sounding of the seventh angel on my chart.

Douggg said:

The four kings do not represent 4 kingdoms.

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Douggg... are you just going to REJECT Daniel 7:23?
Look at verse 7:23 where the Bible explains that the
FOUR BEASTS are really FOUR KINGDOMS.


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST beast shall be
the FOURTH KINGDOM ON EARTH, which shall be diverse from
all [the other three] KINGDOMS, and shall devour the whole earth,
and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Above you said (and I quote you)
"The four kings do not represent 4 kingdoms"


READ VERSE 7:23 again-and-again-and-again...
It contradicts you. Does it not bother you when
the BIBLE contradicts you?


Do you simply REJECT verses that contradict you?
How many Bible verses do you REJECT besides Dan 7:23?
Is it more than ten? Is it more than 20? How many Douggg?

.

I said:

Rev 13:11-13
And I beheld another beast [not the False Prophet] coming
up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he
spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the
first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which
dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound
was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh
fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Douggg said:

Do you not know that (true) prophets speaking on behalf of God? The false prophet speaks on behalf of Satan.

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You are DEFLECTING now... You said the False Prophet arose
in Rev 13:13 (the BIBLE says the BEAST arose)

You said the False Prophet CLAIMED to be Elijah...
(the Bible says no such thing, you ADDED to the Bible)

DEFLECTING does not make your false interpretations valid...
it only shows a willingness to NOT be intellectually honest.

Nobody can TRUST anything you say if you DEFLECT
when challenged about the accuracy of what you said.

At least we have established (rather the BIBLE has established)
that it is the BEAST and not the False Prophet that arises in
Rev 13:13 and NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that
the False Prophet CLAIMS to be Elijah.

That was your own "private interpretation"

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5thKingdom said:

Douggg... are you just going to REJECT Daniel 7:23?
Look at verse 7:23 where the Bible explains that the
FOUR BEASTS are really FOUR KINGDOMS.


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST beast shall be
the FOURTH KINGDOM ON EARTH, which shall be diverse from
all [the other three] KINGDOMS, and shall devour the whole earth,
and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Click to expand...

The four beasts represent four kingdoms.
The four beasts also rerpesent four kings.

But the four kings do not represent four kingdoms.

5thKingdom said:

You are DEFLECTING now... You said the False Prophet arose
in Rev 13:13 (the BIBLE says the BEAST arose)

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The bible says this...

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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Revelation 19:20 confirms that the another beast, the one coming out of the earth, who did the miracles, is the false prophet.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Simply read Revelation 13:14 and then Revelation 19:20.

5thKingdom said:

You said the False Prophet CLAIMED to be Elijah...
(the Bible says no such thing, you ADDED to the Bible)

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I am stating my opinion, and gave you the rationale for it. I never wrote that the bible "says" the false prophet in the written text will claim to be Elijah.

Douggg said:

False accusation you are making. I naver claimed the beast, the king in Revelation 13:1 is the false prophet.

The first beast in Revelation 13:1 is a King, over the fourth kingdom in the end times.
The second beast in Revelation 13 is the false prophet, who is not a king.

It is so simple. I don't understand how you could be getting so confused.

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The false prophet was a king. That false prophet offered up a pig in the temple in Jerusalem. Revelation 13:1-12

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Full stop. This first part was tying in with Daniel and the prophecy prior to Christ. There is no other point in Revelation addressing Daniel. Revelation 12 is about Satan sitting as a power in Rome during the church age. Revelation 17 is the look back on the Roman harlot throughout the history of the church. This false prophet can only be the only human, because it was the only beast that came out of The Sea, known as humanity. This one false prophet prophecied by Daniel, whom all the world will marvel, because of this prophet's "return" to life. Now we see this false prophet as a human of today's terminology:

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Now we see today, people alive today will worship the dragon, Satan. But Satan will use this false prophet as his spokesman. Now the people worship this false prophet. Only during a 42 month period. The same 3.5 year period in Revelation 11:2-7

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

3.5 years, the same time period as 42 months, the same time period of 1260 days. All the same time, the same place, Jerusalem. This time is in the middle of a one week period on a Wednesday.

Now we have the beast standing on the shore, and coming out of the land. Not a human. Does not come out of the sea.

Revelation 12:17-18

17 The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God’s commands and bear witness to Yeshua.
18 Then the dragon stood on the seashore;

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence; and it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, the one whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 It performs great miracles, even causing fire to come down from heaven onto the earth as people watch.
14 It deceives the people living on earth by the miracles it is allowed to perform in the presence of the beast, and it tells them to make an image honoring the beast that was struck by the sword but came alive again.
Revelation 13:11-14

It is only Satan who can deceive people. Historically, God only lets one being, that old dragon, the serpent, deceive humanity. This land beast coming up from the grave, speaking as a dragon, deceiving people as a dragon, doing things that God would only let a dragon do, can only be this dragon, Satan.

Satan deceived Eve, tormented Job, tested many countless humans, tempted Jesus, lost the sting of death at the Cross, and has been deceiving western civilization from Rome for almost 2500 years. Working with the Greeks, who sent their king as a false prophet to desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. He went himself to Jerusalem to test Jesus for 3.5 years. Went back and prepared to sabotage the church in Rome. Just like Revelation 12 and 17 show. Now trying to deceive the modern church to look for an Antichrist, so they will be focused on that instead of the glorious appearing of our God and His Lamb. This is Satan's only 3.5 year period, in which , God allows him to do anything on earth as he sees fit. You think Job was bad??? At the end and the 7 vials, God will have to re-arrange the earth one final time, before the glorified 1000 year period of Christ on earth.

Douggg said:

The 7 year 70th week doesn't get shortened. It is meaning that the great tribulation will be halted by Jesus's return at the end of the 7 years. Otherwise, all life on the planet will be wiped out.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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How can you stop a 7 year period from being longer than 7 years? The only way you can halt a 7 year period is by cutting it in half. Then God says no more after halting it. Now if you want to say Satan gets the last 3.5 years, that is ok. But that 3.5 years is added to the 7, because it is not a stop, it is an added interuption. The 7 years becomes 10.5 years. But if we take away 3.5 years, we end up again with 7 years.

It is the harvest, all will be dead any ways. It was not shortened to spare life. It was supposed to be short, so more humans would turn to Salvation, eternal life, not physical life.

iamlamad said:

Of course not. I suspect around 32 years.

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How did you quote the wrong quote?
I was quoting 5thKingdom.

Timtofly said:

How can you stop a 7 year period from being longer than 7 years?

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What Jesus stops is the great tribulation. Which the great tribulation will last 1335 days. The 7 year 70th week is not "stopped", but completed by Jesus's Return.

Tim Ray said:

Why The Experts Disagree

All readers please consider the following:
God has just one true interpretation for Apocalyptic Prophecy (Dan. & Rev.)

The earth’s population is over 7 billion, made up of many cultures and
diverse religions, of which Christians only make up 25%

There are hundreds of interpretation which have been circulated since John wrote Rev. In 90 A.D.

So how can one determine what one is the correct interpretation?

Please consider the enclosed link, here you will discover, “Why the Experts Disagree” and discover the four laws God built into the prophecies of Daniel and Rev., so that they could be understood correctly by all, when the appointed time should arrive.

Rules of Interpretation are Required to Understand Apocalyptic Prophecy

Click to expand...

How can one source correct all sources, when it is hidden behind a link? A link that works like every other link on the Internet?

Timtofly said:

The false prophet was a king. That false prophet offered up a pig in the temple in Jerusalem. Revelation 13:1-12

Click to expand...

The false prophet is yet to come. He is not a king.

Timtofly said:

Full stop. This first part was tying in with Daniel and the prophecy prior to Christ. There is no other point in Revelation addressing Daniel. Revelation 12 is about Satan sitting as a power in Rome during the church age. Revelation 17 is the look back on the Roman harlot throughout the history of the church.

Click to expand...

I think your point is that Satan the dragon in Revelation 12 is also the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17.

And in Revelation 17, 12 and 13, that beast has the 7 heads and ten horns.

Therefore, in your rationale, the beast in Revelation 13 coming out of the sea, likewise having 7 heads and ten horns must be Satan. Is that your rationale?

If so, the reason that rationale is flawed is because there is another entity called the beast in Revelation 17:8 is in the bottomless pit, until it ascends out. That beast is obviously not Satan, because in Revelation 17:8a, he was and is not ; a way of saying no longer alive. And exists in the bottomless pit as disembodied spirit.

And that beast is still in the bottomless pit in Revelation 12 as well, which that chapter has the full 7 years in it, by adding the 1260 days to the time, times, half time. The seven heads have their crowns though indicating king 7 has come to power before the 7 years begin.

In Revelation 13, one of the heads has been wounded, king 7. And we can conclude because that killed and comeback to life head has become the beast of Revelation 17:11 - that the beast in Revelation 17:8a has ascended out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person. The beast in Revelation 17:8a, I maintain is the original serpent in the garden of Eden (not Satan) but the original beast himself. Currently a disembodied spirit in the bottomless pit.

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The bottom line is Satan is viewed as the beast in Revelation 12 and Revelation 17. Because the actual beast does not ascend out of the bottomless pit until there are 42 months left, there about, to possess the end times man.

The beast in Revelation 13:1, aside from being a kingdom, will be a man - not Satan.

And in Revelation 13:18, the number of the beast is the number of a man.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.