(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[ralliann]

Yes, but that was fortold in the OT! Get it? It was not something that was a surprise and not accounted for. It was in the Scripture that the Scripture would change in this point so it is a fulfillment of Scripture.

A fulfillment of scripture of course....But unless I have misunderstood you, you are speaking of covenants and their fulfillment no?

 

[Dig4truth]

my I remind all that the covenant with Abraham was not part of the covenant made with Israel.

May I remind you that it is in the OT.

I cannot see that he has. We are not under the old covenant law, but there is much to glean from the lives that have gone before us.
relevance???

Remember the days of old, not forsake them.

 

[Dig4truth]

A fulfillment of scripture of course....But unless I have misunderstood you, you are speaking of covenants and their fulfillment no?

No, I am responding to those who say the OT is nullified.

 

[Dig4truth]

Paul explains....

Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Which covenant was confirmed before in Christ? This could not disannul the promise.

De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
As is the new covenant made in Christs blood.
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Maybe a thread is due to actually look at the covenants.....
Genesis 15, is to the 4th generation. Abe is told he would die. as well as Isaac and Jacob, and we know Joseph
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Acts as well as Hebrews say this, in accordance

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We do not receive the second inheritance through the generations of the law. We receive the generation from the holy spirit in Christ. We walk as sojourners here, just like Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob.
Not even the priests which kept the law, when Israel sinned, inherited with Israel.

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

 

[ralliann]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

The point being made in that scripture!
The law made at Sinai could not disannul the promises made to Israel in the Abrahamic covenant......Read the law...It continuously speaks of Gods faithfulness to the fathers.
Examples
Passover, unleavened bread, etc. all his mercy by the previous covenant...
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

The following speaks of his wrath (John the Baptist spoke of this wrath) concerning the prophetic utterance of God to Moses. It was already spoken (prophesied)before they ever entered the land...
dt 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

What saves them????? His faithfulness to keep his oath to Abraham.....His faithfulness, not Israels....
See...Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Le 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Le 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

It is not a good thing to take the things of the Abrahamic promises and make them by the law.

 

[Dig4truth]

The point being made in that scripture!
The law made at Sinai could not disannul the promises made to Israel in the Abrahamic covenant......Read the law...It continuously speaks of Gods faithfulness to the fathers.
Examples
Passover, unleavened bread, etc. all his mercy by the previous covenant...
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

The following speaks of his wrath (John the Baptist spoke of this wrath) concerning the prophetic utterance of God to Moses. It was already spoken (prophesied)before they ever entered the land...
dt 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

What saves them????? His faithfulness to keep his oath to Abraham.....His faithfulness, not Israels....
See...Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Le 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Le 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

It is not a good thing to take the things of the Abrahamic promises and make them by the law.

It's still a little fuzzy, you're using OT passages to argue against OT relevancy. Explain.

 

[ralliann]

It's still a little fuzzy, you're using OT passages to argue against OT relevancy. Explain.

I am using the law to argue against relevancy of the Sinai covenant, in Christ.

 

[Dig4truth]

I am using the law to argue against relevancy of the Sinai covenant, in Christ.

Yep, that's what I said.

Translated; I'm using the law to argue against the relevancy of the law, in Christ.


It's still illogical.

 

[BobRyan]

We have a new and better covenant, so why do posters feel the need to try to teach us we have to observe the old one? .

We don't (teach you to be under the Old Covenant)

We teach the irrefutable fact that the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 is in the Old Testament.

... obviously.

 

[BobRyan]

Apparently some on this thread refuse to listen to God and His Word even from the OT.

Don't be so hard on those opposing the Sabbath Commandment my friend. I am sure they have their reasons.

 

[bugkiller]

May I remind you that it is in the OT.

So your point is...

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

No, I am responding to those who say the OT is nullified.

The NT says it is. Jesus says -

This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. LK 22:20

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We don't.

We teach the irrefutable fact that the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 is in the Old Testament.

... obviously.

bologna

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

David was a man of God. All he had was the Torah and all of Torah could not save him. All the law could do is point out their trespasses. It was a covenant for how to live in Israel. The new covenant is a covenant of love and life eternal. David would surely understand our covenant and write beautiful accolades to Jesus and us for giving us His Rest and piece.

Why is it so many come on this forum expressing the past covenant and never mention what Jesus has done for us by giving us the new and better covenant?

Great question since Christians follow Jesus.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We have a new and better covenant, so why do posters feel the need to try to teach us we have to observe the old one? Thank Jesus for not burdening us with all the rituals Israel had to deal with. Do to the fact that we are still sinners and accept the promises of Jesus blood to cover our mistakes, sometimes it is even hard to love our fellow man as Jesus loves us let alone if we had to do the works of the old covenant. We are so fortunate to be part of Go's plan of salvation this side of the Cross. Amen!

No one will ever convince me to go back and live like those before the Cross.

Ditto for me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I read the following in buggy's definition:
cut a covenant, to hew, to cut or make a covenant.Yes it does. What you're doing here is changing the definition. You changed from and adjective to a verb. The verb in verse 31 is make.True. What they used however is accurate and agrees with the whole text.Sorry but the text says something very different.You're saying it is the same covenant only slightly remolded. I read somewhere about god knowing what he was doing. Your idea would mean no remodel or altercation. The evidence is jots and tittles have indeed changed even with your argument about renewal. If that renewal doesn't include Jesus as a replacement of the levitical priesthood, Jesus isn't the Savior.

Nice catch on the verb and adjective aspect.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sentence context does help define the meaning of some words. Like in this case where the Torah is written on people's hearts. Would this be a brand new Covenant or a renewed Covenant? If it contains components of the same Covenant as before then a renewed definition is indicated.

No one has said what Torah is written on our hearts if it isn't the one and only Torah from God. Can someone list them if they are brand new? Anyone? And remember, if it has anything to do with love then it is covered in the Torah already.

What are those components?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I believe it is a misunderstanding to say that the Mosaic Covenant is contrary to the Abrahamic Covenant.

I The Abrahamic Covenant:
1) The promise of a special relationship: "to be God to you and your descendants" Gen 17:7
2) The gift of the land: Gen.15:18-19
3) The promise of an increase in number: Gen.17:6
4) Establishing the covenant to Abraham's descendants as an everlasting covenant: Gen.17:7,19
5) The promise of blessing: Gen.12:2; 26:24
6) The nations will be blessed: Gen.12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14

II The Mosaic Covenant:
1) The promise of a special relationship: A treasured people, Ex. 19:5 Be your God and you will be My people, Lev. 26:12
2) The gift of the land: Ex. 23:20-23; Lev. 26:42
3) The promise of an increase in number: Lev. 26:9
4) Confirming the covenant to subsequent generations: Lev. 26:9
5) The promise of blessing: Deut.11:26f
6) Israel will be a light, a blessing to the nations: Isa. 2:3; 51:4

As you can see the two Covenants are not separate and distinct but woven together in the flow of redemptive history.
It is not as though God has gone back on His word, at first promising unconditional blessing to Abraham, and then changing His Covenant to be conditional at Sinai. Far from it! God, in choosing Abraham and his offspring, had set Himself to form a people who would be characterized by His own holiness.
The Covenants of Abraham came not only with blessing, but also with provision to attain that blessing through obedience. Indeed, the Abrahamic Covenant anticipated the Mosaic Covenant as the means by which that promised blessing would be realized!

And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Gen. 18:17-19


The blessings promised in the Abrahamic Covenant are secure because God intends to enable Abraham's offspring to do righteousness and justice. To put it in theological terms, the promise of the covenant assures the sanctification of those who will be blessed.
Thus, the Mosaic Covenant, the Torah through the Holy Spirit, is given to bring about that holiness which would, in turn, produce the promised Covenant blessings.
It was necessary then that those who would receive the unconditional blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant should be righteous, not only in a forensic or "positional" sense, but in "doing righteousness and justice." In this way, it is necessary for every Covenant member to have the Torah, because it is in the Torah that God's revelation and standards of righteousness and justice are revealed.
The Abrahamic Covenant is presented as unilateral (God initiating and promising) just as justification is God's sole work. Likewise, the Mosaic Covenant is presented as bilateral (God and Israel working together) just as sanctification is presented in the Bible as the cooperation between the redeemed soul and the Almighty.
But if the Abrahamic covenant included the Gentiles, then it is also necessary that the Gentiles have the Torah; for the Torah (Mosaic Covenant) is the God-given means to prepare His people to receive the blessings promised to Abraham. God's blessings come upon the righteous, not the wicked!
To say that the Gentiles are blessed in the Abrahamic covenant but have no part in the Mosaic covenant would be like saying a person could be justified without becoming sanctified. Such a scenario finds no place in the biblical record.

While it is true the covenant made with Israel includes the covenant made with Abraham, the covenant made with Israel was revoked as Jeremiah predicted and Jesus testified to the fact it was replaced.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, but that was fortold in the OT! Get it? It was not something that was a surprise and not accounted for. It was in the Scripture that the Scripture would change in this point so it is a fulfillment of Scripture.

Where in the OT does it say the priesthood would depart from the tribe of Levi?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

bologna
bugkiller

Great question since Christians follow Jesus.
bugkiller

And Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:6-13 is??