Sigh. I really don't want to argue, that's why I stopped responding to and interacting with this post... But, I'll respond.
Now, before I link the verse. These were Aaron's sons. They had the temple perfected, the alter perfected, the tabernacle perfected, their priestly garments were worn and perfected, everything to a T, perfect. BUT, the one thing that they had off, made it wrong. God even commanded incense to be burnt, but not in the way that they did. There is a prophetic significance to each and every thing in the Torah, and since they didn't obey the order He gave them, what happens in the next verse, happens.
Leviticus 10:1-2
1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron,
took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon,
and offered strange fire before the Lord,
which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.
Then, we see, in the Torah, that some of Israel was beginning to sacrifice lambs and goats and oxen and such outside of the tabernacle, and God had this to say about it.
Leviticus 17:3-4
3What man soever
there be of the house of Israel, that
killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp,
or that killeth
it out of the camp,
4And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
Because it's not done in His way, in His order, and inside the temple, He goes as far as to say this about it:
Leviticus 7:7
7And
they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Do I think we need to sacrifice? No, but generally when we bring up Torah observance, people use sacrifices to paint us out to be bad, so I was defending this by pointing out the scriptural reasons as to why we couldn't, because saying that Jesus indeed fulfilled the sacrificial aspects of the law just leads to them saying "nope, you can't pick and choose, it's all or none" even though scripturally that makes no sense as there were laws dealing with all groups of people. Kings, women, judges, priests, levites, farmers, children, etc. I'm none of the things mentioned previously, so that really doesn't leave too many for me to observe. Not to mention the 613 people count, is rabbinical, and not Torah, but I digress. Not even Jesus kept all of Torah, because He wasn't a king, nor a farmer, nor a woman, nor a .... do you get my point? We keep what applies to us.
No, not at all. But, as said before, not even Jesus kept all of the law. Read the response above this quote. Does this mean He wasn't perfect? Pfft, absolutely not. Of course Jesus was perfect, but He only kept what laws applied specifically to Him, and I listed off a lot of the laws and some of their categories up above, a lot of which didn't pertain to Him.
Because, they all were referred to as being things that He commanded. He wouldn't say, obey my Torah! No, He said multiple times do all things I have commanded you this day, or do these that I have commanded you. All of the Torah is a command. He even "commands" the stars and the animals and heavens and lights to keep their positions. Commands aren't just referring to the commandments, it refers to anything He says to do, not even just to us, but biblically to anything in creation.
See, people quote this verse all the time, but I want you to think about something, without even looking at the context of what it's saying, who was this written to?
Gentiles.
What's my point, right? Gentiles eat all meat, regardless of whether or not it's clean or unclean, so why would they be judged? The only reason they'd be judged is if they were abstaining, and not partaking.
Drink. Gentiles were into paganism, and historically, if you look into how they celebrated, literally all of their festivals and feasts involved getting drunk. So, they had no judgement against drinking. Why would they be judged regarding drink? Unless they were avoiding getting drunk.
Holy days? Can man make a day holy? Were gentile feast days called holy? No, not until well after the writers of the NT were all dead. Holy days, come from the days God made, His Holy Days, or in Hebrew His Moadim. His appointed times. Why would gentiles be judged for observing Holy Days? Unless they were celebrating the Holy Feast Days of our Father in a land where they were foreign, or later on "Jewish".
New Moons. You're a gentile I'm presuming. Do you have any relation to a new moon? No. Historically, gentiles have never paid any attention to new moons, our calendars have never revolved around them. BUT, Hebraically, using the calendar that God's feast days use, each new month starts with each new moon. Actually, Passover and a few other Feast Days, always land on full moons because of this. It's why He gave us the moon sun and stars to observe times and seasons. They'd only be judged observing new moons if they were revolving their months around observing the new moons, as opposed to the sun and stars like the gentiles did, and do.
Sabbath days. Notice it's plural. Gentiles hate Jews back then, because gentiles worked 7 days a week and they saw Jews as lazy. They had no day's off aside from their celebrations. Jews, took not only a day off a week, but also are required to take days off and observe them as sabbaths at the start and end of several Holy Days. Trumpets is one, which happens this thursday, atonement is one, and so is tabernacles. Tabernacles is actually a week long celebration in which you're required to go into temporary dwellings, with sabbath days on the first and last day. To a gentile, this would seem absolutely absurd back then.
If he were writing to gentiles that didn't keep Torah, this would make no sense. Unless it's saying, keep whatever, do whatever, drink and eat whatever you want. But, still, Sabbath comes from Torah, New Moons are only observed because of our Father, and Holy Days come from the Father as well, so I mean.
I absolutely don't know more than Paul. He had all of the Torah memorized, so yeah, no haha.
But, he most definitely didn't think that observing the Law of God was rejecting Jesus. He himself kept it, he even admitted to it.
Acts 20:6 -
6And we sailed away from Philippi
after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Right there, that's a verse of him keeping the feast of unleavened bread, which is kept after Passover. So, if he thought as you're saying he did, then right there he's rejecting Jesus. There weren't any Jews with them at that time, so there was no reason for them to celebrate that unless they truly felt it was the right thing to do.
I know what you're saying. But, that isn't so, just because I am trying to learn to be as observant to Torah as I can, doesn't mean I'm rejecting Jesus. If I looked at it like, my observance to Torah will save me! Then absolutely. Look brother, I'm saved because of the faith that I have in Jesus (Yeshua), and that's it. Period. But, I've because of that salvation, got a desire inside of me to keep His Torah. Not for my salvation, that's already taken care of. It's because it's what He asks us to do. But out of faith, not fear. While knowing that if we do break Torah, and sin (because sin is only described as the transgression of Torah), that we are justified not in our works, but by our Savior. That, the fact that our heart desires to keep that which our flesh tries to get us to break, shows which seed we're from.
That, and the more I research into the history after the apostles, and how they all kept Torah all the way up until 300 AD, and were literally forced by the sword to stop and pick up the pagan practices we keep today, the more I desire to keep to the ways He commanded us. Otherwise, there's too many contradictions (faith without works is dead, listen to the pharisees because they teach what moses taught, depart from me ye who practice lawlessness, etc.)
Also, Paul was being talked to here, and person speaking straight up said:
Acts 21:24
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave
their heads:
and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee,
are nothing;
but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
He didn't say, fool them so that they leave you alone, and don't try to kill you. No, He said, prove to them that you yourself obey Torah. Walking orderly, or upright, biblically refers to one who keeps torah.
Like I said above, I'm not, nor are any of my brothers and sisters in the faith justifying ourselves by the law. We understand His merciful grace. I'm not keeping Torah to justify myself, because I'm already justified. But, He asks us to keep Torah because they are His instructions on how to be blessed. He wants to bless us, but according to the Torah, if we disobey the Torah, we literally cannot be blessed by Him in the ways He desires to bless us. If we keep Torah, He will infinitely bless us. Look to the Jews, they are a 1/4th of a 1% of the world's population, and are the wealthiest most influential group of people in history. Why? Because, even though they lack faith in Jesus, they keep Torah. They also keep other faulty man-made doctrines, but nonetheless, they keep Torah, and God HAS to bless them. It's in His own law. We aren't to keep Torah to be justified, because we already are. We keep it, because it's how we show we are His, it's how we receive His blessings, and I just want to do it because I love Him and He asks me to do them, and I don't think it's too much to ask. If the Creator says what is good for you to do, and what is bad, probably has some good points. Can love fulfill most of the things in there, absolutely, that's after all what Torah was about - Love. BUT, love won't magically put the feast days into your knowledge, you've got to study to learn certain things about Him and the walk He desires for us.
I didn't say there would be a lazy way out of salvation brother. I understand what you mean by the analogy you just gave me, but as my previous response shows, I know where you're coming from. You're attacking me all throughout this message with the assumption that I'm trying to justify myself with the Torah, when that isn't the case. I've said it several times in this message, and if you go back throughout my responses all throughout this post, I've said it probably 50 times in 50 different ways to each person. But I'll say it again.
The Torah, isn't what justifies me. Nor is it what I'm using to justify myself. In fact, I can't even use anything TO justify myself. I have in and of myself no ability to justify anything I've ever said or done, to the Father. He, coming down as Yeshua (Jesus) is the ONLY justification that I have, or need. I do love my brother, and love does fulfill much of the Torah. If you go back and read the instructions given in the Torah, a lot of it is plain and simple being mature and respectfully loving to each other, so yes, love definitely fulfills that.
I'm not saying that we observe Torah FOR justification. FOR salvation. No. I'm observing it, because it's God's will. He asks me to do it, and I don't think it's too much to ask of me. I desire to keep it, because of the love that He's given me for others, and for Him. I can't even love Him on my own brother, even that is of God. I'm not saying that we keep it for salvation, I'm saying we strive to walk in it because of the love of the one that brought us our salvation.
All throughout the bible, it talks of people who walked in the way I'm describing. Keeping the law because they were thankful for God's grace and mercy, for God's love and promises, not because they felt they were capable of a feat only our Almighty Creator is capable of. We're but sheep brother. In the spiritual realm we can't lead - we can only be led. If we're not being led by God, we're being led by the enemy.
I completely agree to this. If you know the Torah, you don't even have to stress about what it says so long as you love. There are things in Torah that aren't capable of being completed without studying though. The Feast Days for example, you can love all you want. Knowledge of them isn't going to pop up into your mind unless you spend time with God in His word.
Romans 16:
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Notice that it says that the mystery was kept secret. What mystery? Well, this mystery separated faithless men from God, and brought faithful men to Him. That's what the whole bible is about. Men with faith were brought to God, men without, killed and defeated.
Notice also, how it says "made manifest" meaning, that it wasn't created, but became known, made to be seen, or was made aware. Meaning, that it was a truth that always existed, but the entire WORLD was blind to it. ALL of the world was blind to it, except for a bloodline of people, that contained the spirit of God within them - and from this the Messiah was born. These men were Abraham, Moses, David, Samuel, etc. All men of faith, that had the spirit of God. And they all kept Torah, but were justified by faith, NOT their works. It's not that Jesus made this, Jesus always was, is and will be. They could just see this, and had faith in God, when the whole world had faith in themselves. It's quite literally the story of how God used ONE bloodline, to defeat the devil when he had the WHOLE WORLD.
Yeah, I guess so. Wish you the best my, brother.
I'd also like to point out, that in Matthew 7:23 - (this is a paraphrase) where it says "depart from me, ye who work INIQUITY", that word "iniquity" is translated from the greek word "anomia" which means:
Lawlessness, or one without law, for one of two reasons. The ignorance to the law, or the desire to break it. So, Jesus literally said, Depart from me ye who work lawlessness.
He said He who does away with the LEAST of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be the least in heaven, He didn't say he who does away with ALL of them. Least is just the least and no more, all... idk. Again, I'm not advocating the line of thinking that Torah observance justifies you. Not by any means.
Disprove the verses I've brought up, don't ignore them, and don't reason around them. Just be honest with yourself. Look up the greek word anomia to see if I'm lying. Look up it's connection to that verse. Look up if Paul celebrated Unleavened bread, look into what I'm saying. Don't just ignore it, disprove it. That's why this forum post has lasted so long. No one looks at a single fact, we just quote bible verses. I'll bring up a topic no one can dispute, and get 5 other verses that I'll then look at and disprove in context but none of mine will get any looks. They'll be like yup, and move on. Don't just say yup and move on, look into what I'm saying. Isn't it possible that modern day theology is off, even just a bit? It's your eternal soul, it should be at least the consideration. Why would Jesus say depart from me ye who work lawlessness if there were no law? Don't be like most on this post and ignore a verse you can't dispute, disprove the verses I've brought up. Test them. I could be wrong too brother, but we have to test them. I've tested each verse brought before me on this forum post since the OP, and most were taken out of context.
