(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[RDKirk]

The Christmas tree (originating in 16th century Germany) is not an idol, which is being spoken of here. It is not worshipped, ... nor used in any worship of God.

Doesn't matter. Inventing worship is inherently problematical.

You shall not offer any strange incense on this altar, or burnt offering or meal offering; and you shall not pour out a drink offering on it. -- Exodus 30

There are multiple references to God taking a dim view of worship practices He did not explicitly ordain.

There are no references to God explicitly approving a practice that men ordained.

 

[A_Thinker]

Doesn't matter. Inventing worship is inherently problematical.

You shall not offer any strange incense on this altar, or burnt offering or meal offering; and you shall not pour out a drink offering on it. -- Exodus 30

There are multiple references to God taking a dim view of worship practices He did not explicitly ordain.

There are no references to God explicitly approving a practice that men ordained.

There is no worship involved with Christmas trees.

They are, simply, seasonal/festival decor ... no offerings, no incense, no worship ...

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Here, I'll make it easy and clear what I think the law written on gentiles hearts means: to love your neighbor as yourself, as this is the fulfillment of the law.
I do not believe it means any of the other regulations (food restrictions, temple instructions, circumcision, etc...) were written on the gentiles heart.

This means i do believe there WAS a change in the law. It also appears that the author of Hebrews believes that there was a change In the law
Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

However, you originally stated the law was not done away with (this would mean unchanged), so i am still trying to understand what you mean by that. But for some reason, you are still not wanting to explain why you believe that.

They do not respond to me either...assuming they don't want to take time to think through their ill-conceived interpretations and re-interpretations. (Don't want to let Scripture get in the way...so to speak!) They are going down a slippery slope, on a frenzy and carried away by their own desires. They do best to heed James...
James 1:19:
My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak...

 

[Devin P]

The Christmas tree (originating in 16th century Germany) is not an idol, which is being spoken of here. It is not worshipped, ... nor used in any worship of God.

Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

Here's a website that goes into the origins of christmas, which was in fact the feast of saturnalia. Research into the history of saturnalia, the christmas tree came from pagan customs in which they worship trees, it is something that has gone on for thousands of years. He literally says

"for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Pagans, for thousands of years have worshipped trees. That website goes into detail on this, is a tree not made of wood? If you don't believe that website, look into the feast of saturnalia, there's tons of history on it, I'm not making it up, it's just what used to be. Then the roman church decided to merge with them, I know it's not pleasant to hear, but it's true. I'm not saying that YOU should stop observing Christmas, but just because you still want to observe it, doesn't make it's origins any less ungodly.

Not only that, but to an extent, I don't think intent matters. Look at what happened to Aarons sons, the second he took over the priesthood in Leviticus 10, his sons, with good intentions (I'd imagine, I can't discern their hearts) offered an unauthorized incense offering to our Father, and instantly they were killed, because He had not commanded them to worship Him in that way. They worshipped Him in a way that the pagans did at that time, even though they meant for it to be worshipping God, instantly they were killed.

Leviticus 10:1-2 -
1And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

3Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

In verse 3, sanctified, means set apart. His people will be set apart. But how? Apparently not in ways that WE as people decide, because He didn't command it and approve of it, and anything that we work to give praise to Him, unless He's approved of it, is strange to Him. We are set apart, by Him, and His commands. Literally just by walking in His ways, you are in stark contrast to the world, and you completely oppose the world. Not out of hatred, but love, love for the Father, and not yourself, or the world. The sons of Aaron here, showed love of themselves and the customs of the world, more than they showed love for the Father. It's not that they were evil, they were just misled, as I felt I was, and have since felt convicted that I don't observe the "holidays" invented by man, and instead observe the "Holy Days" given by God Himself. All of which by the way, are about Jesus, 4 out of 7 of which, He's fulfilled in His first coming, and the last 3, deal with His return (Feast of Trumpets), His judgement (Feast of Atonement) and us being reunited with Him, and Him making His home here, on earth with us (Feast of Tabernacles). The spring feasts Jesus already fulfilled when He came the first time, now, next, the fall feasts He will come again to fulfill. But these feasts are ONLY for Israel, and the gentiles that wish to observe them, must become part of Israel, by being sanctified by God. How do we become sanctified? By observing His Torah (or more accurately, His Instructions.)

 

[Devin P]

They do not respond to me either...assuming they don't want to take time to think through their ill-conceived interpretations and re-interpretations. (Don't want to let Scripture get in the way...so to speak!) They are going down a slippery slope, on a frenzy and carried away by their own desires. They do best to heed James...
James 1:19:
My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak...

I'm sorry, I must've been missing your statements. What is your stance on all of this? I went back to look, but I couldn't find them v.v

 

[Devin P]

Here, I'll make it easy and clear what I think the law written on gentiles hearts means: to love your neighbor as yourself, as this is the fulfillment of the law.
I do not believe it means any of the other regulations (food restrictions, temple instructions, circumcision, etc...) were written on the gentiles heart.

This means i do believe there WAS a change in the law. It also appears that the author of Hebrews believes that there was a change In the law
Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

However, you originally stated the law was not done away with (this would mean unchanged), so i am still trying to understand what you mean by that. But for some reason, you are still not wanting to explain why you believe that.

Yea, my apologies. I was caught up in discussion with a fellow-forum-goer.

Jesus Himself said that until heaven and earth shall pass away, not one jot or tittle shall be done away with of the law. There are things that have been done away with either in the coming of Jesus, or us being dispersed amongst the nations, but nonetheless, the laws in which we are able to fulfill, we should still be maintaining. If you research into the early church (1-2 AD) They were still observing passover, unleavened bread, first fruits, etc. They still observed the biblical feasts and celebrations, they still observed the 7th day sabbath, but during the 3rd and 4th centuries, certain Roman rulers, instituted changes, and merged the ways of our Father, with paganism. Introducing and merging His word, with paganism. Changing the days of the week into what we observe them to be now. They actually outlawed the biblical 7th day sabbath, and if they caught you observing the sabbath as the bible tells us to, you were punished, and enough time passed, that we kept with that change, and still do. There's many more ways that the Roman rulers, and even later the Roman catholic church did away with the ways the bible calls us to worship, and instituted changes that we still observe today, but that's another thing for another time.

The point is,
Jesus only came for Israel. For those that were the lost sheep of Israel. When the word tells us that there is no difference between gentiles and jews, it's saying that because, they become one in Jesus. Two tribes remained faithful enough that God didn't divorce them, Judah, and (this is under debate but many believe it to be) Benjamin. The other 10, were scattered amongst the nations, and never were brought back. They never, were brought back. They were to be brought back after Jesus ascended, and they were of gentile origin, and after coming to Jesus, were to become Israel. But, those laws, were for Israel, that is why I say it isn't done away with, aside from the fact that Jesus literally tells us it wasn't done away with. It biblically speaking, wouldn't make any sense for the law to be done away with, because Jesus Himself said that He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, meaning, to whom He comes, are Israel. So, if He's your shepherd, then you, are part of one of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, for whom the law was made.

 

[A_Thinker]

Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

Here's a website that goes into the origins of christmas, which was in fact the feast of saturnalia. Research into the history of saturnalia, the christmas tree came from pagan customs in which they worship trees, it is something that has gone on for thousands of years. He literally says

"for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Pagans, for thousands of years have worshipped trees. That website goes into detail on this, is a tree not made of wood? If you don't believe that website, look into the feast of saturnalia, there's tons of history on it, I'm not making it up, it's just what used to be. Then the roman church decided to merge with them, I know it's not pleasant to hear, but it's true. I'm not saying that YOU should stop observing Christmas, but just because you still want to observe it, doesn't make it's origins any less ungodly.

Not only that, but to an extent, I don't think intent matters. Look at what happened to Aarons sons, the second he took over the priesthood in Leviticus 10, his sons, with good intentions (I'd imagine, I can't discern their hearts) offered an unauthorized incense offering to our Father, and instantly they were killed, because He had not commanded them to worship Him in that way. They worshipped Him in a way that the pagans did at that time, even though they meant for it to be worshipping God, instantly they were killed.

Leviticus 10:1-2 -
1And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

3Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

In verse 3, sanctified, means set apart. His people will be set apart. But how? Apparently not in ways that WE as people decide, because He didn't command it and approve of it, and anything that we work to give praise to Him, unless He's approved of it, is strange to Him. We are set apart, by Him, and His commands. Literally just by walking in His ways, you are in stark contrast to the world, and you completely oppose the world. Not out of hatred, but love, love for the Father, and not yourself, or the world. The sons of Aaron here, showed love of themselves and the customs of the world, more than they showed love for the Father. It's not that they were evil, they were just misled, as I felt I was, and have since felt convicted that I don't observe the "holidays" invented by man, and instead observe the "Holy Days" given by God Himself. All of which by the way, are about Jesus, 4 out of 7 of which, He's fulfilled in His first coming, and the last 3, deal with His return (Feast of Trumpets), His judgement (Feast of Atonement) and us being reunited with Him, and Him making His home here, on earth with us (Feast of Tabernacles). The spring feasts Jesus already fulfilled when He came the first time, now, next, the fall feasts He will come again to fulfill. But these feasts are ONLY for Israel, and the gentiles that wish to observe them, must become part of Israel, by being sanctified by God. How do we become sanctified? By observing His Torah (or more accurately, His Instructions.)

No Christians worship trees ... nor use them in their worship.

I looked up information on Saturnalia ... and the mythological good Saturn. There was no mention of any tree worship/symbolism in any of the information I looked up.

Also, this is not my first go-round on this subject. I did an objective study on the subject some thirty years ago or so. I concluded that there was no connection between what the prophet was speaking of in Jeremiah and Christmas trees.

I discovered years ago that trees were not even used as decor at Christmas ... until the 16th century, long after Christianity became the predominant religion in Europe.

I am not married to the idea of using trees as decor during the holiday season, but I have not been led by the Spirit to consider it a problem either.

Of course, I am a follower of the Spirit, rather than a law-keeper, so I also participate in celebrations on Resurrection Sunday, Labor Day, Veterans Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc.

Jesus said that all men would know that we are his followers by our LOVE for one another.

That is our distinction ...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The law placed within you, is anything that would make you conscious you sinned by wilfully transgressing it. That's the simplest way to answer the question.
Any law you were convicted to follow, solely because you read that law in the OT, wouldn't be law written in your mind and placed on your heart.
Your conviction would come from within concerning that law, not through what is written in ink

 

[RisenInJesus]

Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

Here's a website that goes into the origins of christmas, which was in fact the feast of saturnalia. Research into the history of saturnalia, the christmas tree came from pagan customs in which they worship trees, it is something that has gone on for thousands of years. He literally says

"for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Do you have money in your wallet? Do you spend it and buy things with it? U.S currency has occult, pagan symbols on it. Do you call the days of the week by their names: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc.? These are named after Roman gods. That passage in Jeremiah is about the people cutting trees and carving them into idols and worshiping them as gods. It is totally inappropriate and blatant scripture twisting to use that passage as if it applies to Christmas trees! God is the Creator of trees and certainly Christians are free to enjoy their beauty and use them as beautiful decorations, no different than flowers or autumn leaves. I've never heard of a Christian bowing down, worshiping Christmas trees, or believing they are gods! I am sure you never have either.

We live in a fallen world and EVERYTHING is tainted by pagan influences. That is no reason for the Christian to avoid celebrating the gift of Christ coming to this earth as the Savior or to use all things for God's glory and point to Christ. I truly feel sorry for the bondage you are placing upon yourself, rather than living in the truth, victory, and freedom of Jesus Christ.

Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?

4 Misconceptions About Christmas

 

[JIMINZ]

No Christians worship trees ... nor use them in their worship.

I looked up information on Saturnalia ... and the mythological good Saturn. There was no mention of any tree worship/symbolism in any of the information I looked up.

Also, this is not my first go-round on this subject. I did an objective study on the subject some thirty years ago or so. I concluded that there was no connection between what the prophet was speaking of in Jeremiah and Christmas trees.

I discovered years ago that trees were not even used as decor at Christmas ... until the 16th century, long after Christianity became the predominant religion in Europe.

I am not married to the idea of using trees as decor during the holiday season, but I have not been led by the Spirit to consider it a problem either.

Of course, I am a follower of the Spirit, rather than a law-keeper, so I also participate in celebrations on Resurrection Sunday, Labor Day, Veterans Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc.

Jesus said that all men would know that we are his followers by our LOVE for one another.

That is our distinction ...

.
I have noticed, those who are so stringent about observances related to Christmas, Easter, Halloween, seem to abdicate their position, once they have children of their own.

 

[RisenInJesus]

.
I have noticed, those who are so stringent about observances related to Christmas, Easter, Halloween, seem to abdicate their position, once they have children of their own.

Either that, or they do a lot of legalistic harm to their children which confuses kids who often then end up turning away from God.

 

[Devin P]

Do you have money in your wallet? Do you spend it and buy things with it? U.S currency has occult, pagan symbols on it. Do you call the days of the week by their names: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc.? These are named after Roman gods. That passage in Jeremiah is about the people cutting trees and carved them into idols and worshiping them as gods. It is totally inappropriate and blatant scripture twisting to use that passage as if it applies to Christmas trees! God is the Creator of trees and certainly Christians are free to enjoy their beauty and use them as beautiful decorations, no different than flowers or autumn leaves. I've never heard of a Christian bowing down, worshiping Christmas trees, or believing they are gods! I am sure you never have either.

We live in a fallen world and EVERYTHING is tainted by pagan influences. That is no reason for the Christian to avoid celebrating the gift of Christ coming to this earth as the Savior or to use all things for God's glory and point to Christ. I truly feel sorry for the bondage you are placing upon yourself, rather than living in the truth, victory, and freedom of Jesus Christ.

Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?

4 Misconceptions About Christmas

The truth, can only be seen when you look at the historical facts regarding what they did regarding Saturnalia. The Tree, was in fact used to represent their God. That's not an assumption, that's not misinformation, that is a fact. I'm not going to argue this, because it's something that can easily be proven, all you have to do, is look up it's role in the feast of saturnalia.

I understand your reference to occultism on our money, and the paganism on our money, but did not the coin Jesus held have Julius' face on it? Those of that time, used it to buy and sell, not for worshipping their Father. I use money to buy and sell, not for worshipping my Father. It's similar, but not the same thing.

 

[GingerBeer]

People who invent sins usually do so by inventing religious rules and laws or interpreting existing (and probably abrogated) laws in new and novel ways. The fact remains - regardless of one's opinion of Christmas trees and Easter eggs - that if somebody wants to proclaim the Law given through Moses as eternal then they will need priests descended from Aaron, a temple in Jerusalem, and animal sacrifices offered on the altar in Jerusalem to do it otherwise they will not be keeping the "eternal law" they will just be pretending to keep it. Their observances will be a sham. They cannot expect God's approval or blessing for sham worship like that.

 

[GingerBeer]

The Tree, was in fact used to represent their God. That's not an assumption, that's not misinformation, that is a fact.

A fact you say. Where is this alleged fact documented? Romans didn't decorate trees for their revelries in December.

 

[Devin P]

No Christians worship trees ... nor use them in their worship.

I looked up information on Saturnalia ... and the mythological good Saturn. There was no mention of any tree worship/symbolism in any of the information I looked up.

Also, this is not my first go-round on this subject. I did an objective study on the subject some thirty years ago or so. I concluded that there was no connection between what the prophet was speaking of in Jeremiah and Christmas trees.

I discovered years ago that trees were not even used as decor at Christmas ... until the 16th century, long after Christianity became the predominant religion in Europe.

I am not married to the idea of using trees as decor during the holiday season, but I have not been led by the Spirit to consider it a problem either.

Of course, I am a follower of the Spirit, rather than a law-keeper, so I also participate in celebrations on Resurrection Sunday, Labor Day, Veterans Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc.

Jesus said that all men would know that we are his followers by our LOVE for one another.

That is our distinction ...

"Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church."

Yeah I didn't mean to make it sound like I was saying that the tree had anything to do with the god of Saturnalia, I said it was a pagan practice that had been practiced for thousands of years. It's something that historically, Pagans did, looooooong before Jesus. Long enough before Jesus that God felt it necessary to warn us of their practices.

I know it represents some god they sought, I'm not sure of which god it was, it's like Ashterah or something like that. Ash something, which the cult of Asheira is derived from (I'm assuming), but it's been a bit since I've looked into that, so I'm not sure of that "gods" exact name, but it's similar to the name of their cult, that I know for sure.

Pray about it though. I definitely agree, but just because I observe the law, doesn't mean that I don't love my fellow brother or sister. I observe the law out of love for the Father, but that doesn't mean I don't love my neighbor, for I was once a believer much like the majority of people are today, there's no room for an ego, because all that I see and all that I am, is a gift from my Father, which means there's no possible room for an ego to sprout. His spirit, leads us into obedience, but without the law, what would we be obedient to? Considering God doesn't come down out of the clouds to tell me what to and not to do, this always set wrong with me, until He showed me that the obedience I should have, is to His laws, and that His laws weren't burdensome, that I held them in high esteem. As Psalm 1 says:

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

It's not that I follow the law for salvation, I follow it because of it. His spirit causes me to WANT to obey His laws, and to carefully observe them.

 

[A_Thinker]

The truth, can only be seen when you look at the historical facts regarding what they did regarding Saturnalia. The Tree, was in fact used to represent their God. That's not an assumption, that's not misinformation, that is a fact. I'm not going to argue this, because it's something that can easily be proven, all you have to do, is look up it's role in the feast of saturnalia.

For the sake of completeness, I have searched several objective sources (i.e encyclopedias) of information on the festival of Saturnalia and the mythological god Saturn, ... and have found not one mention of the use of trees as symbols or representations.

And once again, ... christians didn't use Christmas trees for 15 centuries after the establishment of Christianity. and that usage began in Christian Germany. There is no connections between ancient pagan customs and the present day use of christmas trees. There's at least a millenium-long GAP between the two.

 

[RDKirk]

.
I have noticed, those who are so stringent about observances related to Christmas, Easter, Halloween, seem to abdicate their position, once they have children of their own.

And yet, there are Muslims who become Christians in Muslim countries abandon Muslim holy days without assuming the ersatz European Christian holy days.

 

[Devin P]

People who invent sins usually do so by inventing religious rules and laws or interpreting existing (and probably abrogated) laws in new and novel ways. The fact remains - regardless of one's opinion of Christmas trees and Easter eggs - that if somebody wants to proclaim the Law given through Moses as eternal then they will need priests descended from Aaron, a temple in Jerusalem, and animal sacrifices offered on the altar in Jerusalem to do it otherwise they will not be keeping the "eternal law" they will just be pretending to keep it. Their observances will be a sham. They cannot expect God's approval or blessing for sham worship like that.

The two tribes that God didn't divorce, kept the laws. They still are today. But, the 10 tribes that were sent into dispersion, were never brought back. He promised to bring them back one day. I say this, because you have to know it for what I'm about to say - not that you didn't already, but at the very least, it's fresh in your mind now.

Okay, so, with Jesus, a new priesthood came about, meaning that there is no longer a need for the priesthood of Aarons lineage, not only that, but without a temple, we cannot sacrifice, and without Godly ordained judges, we cannot judge a matter enough, to stone. But, there are laws that - whilst in dispersion - we can still observe. There are laws that we CAN'T observe, either because we're in dispersion, or because Jesus fulfilled them (e.g. the sacrifices), but there are laws, statutes, commands and decrees we still can observe. We need none of these things for tzitzits, we need none of these things for the biblical feast days, we need none of these things for observing the sabbath, and we need none of these things for giving back to someone 2x - 5x what we stole from them (if we steal, which obviously, don't steal haha).

 

[Devin P]

For the sake of completeness, I have searched several objective sources (i.e encyclopedias) of information on the festival of Saturnalia and the mythological god Saturn, ... and have found not one mention of the use of trees as symbols or representations.

I mean no harm or irritation by saying this, but you have to read more carefully my brother.

Here is a quote from my last message to you. **NOTE** **Read the blue**

"Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church."

Yeah I didn't mean to make it sound like I was saying that the tree had anything to do with the god of Saturnalia, I said it was a pagan practice that had been practiced for thousands of years. It's something that historically, Pagans did, looooooong before Jesus. Long enough before Jesus that God felt it necessary to warn us of their practices."

Again, I didn't mean to sound so harsh or offensive in saying it like that, this thread has just gone on for a long time, and I'm exhausting myself haha.

 

[Devin P]

But, when the Romans combined Saturnalia with Christianity, more than just Saturnalia was involved, a few different pagan festivities were joined in, the tree was one of them. It wasn't just about saturnalia observance, it was pagan observance, and pagans have many gods, not just one. Saturnalia was based around one of their gods, the tree worshipping was another.