[MOVED] I Don't Believe that God is Good Anymore

[Saint Steven]

Believers are elect in The Elect, who is Christ. Why do you ask about predestination?

If the elect are predestined, then so are the "damned". Countless billions of them.

 

[Saint Steven]

To think that foreknowledge equals causation is to make a fundamental mistake in modal logic.

Either there is a flaw in the plan, or a flaw in the fulfillment. If not the fulfillment, then certainly the plan. With knowledge and forethought.

What kind of a God loves us when we are "good" and hates us when we are "bad"? I wouldn't treat a dog that way.

 

[aiki]

The benefits of a God-centered life outweigh the benefits without one. Even if there is no afterlife. To walk with God is to live the abundant life that we are promised. It seems that most Christians aren't living that abundant life. They see no value of being saved in the here and now. Tragic really.

Okay. But, to the selfish person who is finding a life of sin perfectly gratifying and enjoyable, on what basis do you argue that the abundant life in Christ, a life that necessarily entails self-sacrifice and suffering, is better than the life of self-gratification they're enjoying?

If the elect are predestined, then so are the "damned". Countless billions of them.

Indeed. A horrendous idea, isn't it, that God has made the majority of people to be destroyed and blames them for their destruction. Sick, really.

Either there is a flaw in the plan, or a flaw in the fulfillment. If not the fulfillment, then certainly the plan. With knowledge and forethought.

Not sure what you're getting at here, exactly.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay. But, to the selfish person who is finding a life of sin perfectly gratifying and enjoyable, on what basis do you argue that the abundant life in Christ, a life that necessarily entails self-sacrifice and suffering, is better than the life of self-gratification they're enjoying?

Hopefully we don't believe for a minute that a life of sin will be "perfectly gratifying and enjoyable". Like driving off of a cliff and claiming you were in perfect health before you hit the bottom. - lol

Weren't you talking about consequences earlier? Why do they suddenly not apply here?

 

[Saint Steven]

Indeed. A horrendous idea, isn't it, that God has made the majority of people to be destroyed and blames them for their destruction. Sick, really.

I agree. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[aiki]

Hopefully we don't believe for a minute that a life of sin will be "perfectly gratifying and enjoyable".

As a Christian, one who has actually experienced the joy of fellowship with God, I don't believe that a life of sin is better. I had a good friend, though, an unbeliever, who was quite content to live a godless life. His drunken, weekend-long golf parties with his friends, the frequent, casual sexual liaisons he enjoyed, the entirely self-focused expenditure of his resources were all thoroughly gratifying. He was wealthy, comfortable and satisfied.

We talked often and long about the Gospel, about the Christian worldview and about Christian living. I painted as biblical a picture of what it meant to be a believer as I could; I described the joys of knowing Christ, the meaning and fulfillment of being his disciple; but while my friend acknowledged that my experience was real and good, he was not the least convinced that my life was better than his. In fact, he believed I was missing out on a great many excellent experiences as a result of my faith.

If there is nothing beyond death, how is my friend wrong in his perspective? Nothing in his experience bore out my contention that his life of thoroughly enjoyable self-gratification was less good than mine. From his point of view, the exact opposite was true.

Weren't you talking about consequences earlier? Why do they suddenly not apply here?

For many who live wicked lives - especially in affluent societies - the dire consequences of godless living don't kick in until the hereafter.

I agree. What's wrong with this picture?

Yes, it's one thing to judge and punish the wicked for their free choices but quite another to irresistibly bind a person into a wicked life and then blame - and punish - them for their condition.

 

[Saint Steven]

As a Christian, one who has actually experienced the joy of fellowship with God, I don't believe that a life of sin is better. I had a good friend, though, an unbeliever, who was quite content to live a godless life. His drunken, weekend-long golf parties with his friends, the frequent, casual sexual liaisons he enjoyed, the entirely self-focused expenditure of his resources were all thoroughly gratifying. He was wealthy, comfortable and satisfied.

We talked often and long about the Gospel, about the Christian worldview and about Christian living. I painted as biblical a picture of what it meant to be a believer as I could; I described the joys of knowing Christ, the meaning and fulfillment of being his disciple; but while my friend acknowledged that my experience was real and good, he was not the least convinced that my life was better than his. In fact, he believed I was missing out on a great many excellent experiences as a result of my faith.

If there is nothing beyond death, how is my friend wrong in his perspective? Nothing in his experience bore out my contention that his life of thoroughly enjoyable self-gratification was less good than mine. From his point of view, the exact opposite was true.

Eventually "life" happens and we need God, or the spiritual aspect in our lives. Things we can't control, and things we can control. The loss of a loved one, or terminal illness. Decades of drinking with your buddies becomes a battle with alcoholism, a serious automobile accident, or a DWI on your record. Sexual adventures can lead to STDs or pregnancy. Accumulated wealth can evaporate when financial disaster strikes.

The person with an anchor is not adrift on the sea of uncertainty that those without God suffer from. Whether they realize they are suffering or not.

And all of this is true whether there is an afterlife or not.

 

[Saint Steven]

For many who live wicked lives - especially in affluent societies - the dire consequences of godless living don't kick in until the hereafter.

That is our perception, but the reality is that these folks are suffering, whether they reveal it to us, or not. Can't live with their spouse so they get divorced. Their children are out of control and end up in trouble, or a mental institution. They frequent fund-raising charities to make themselves feel better, while they oppress their own employees. Yes, their life is grand. They put up a good facade'.

Interesting to travel through an affluent neighborhood during the day. Beautiful homes left empty. Because they have to work around the clock to pay for them. Flying here and there to do business. No rest for the wicked. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, it's one thing to judge and punish the wicked for their free choices but quite another to irresistibly bind a person into a wicked life and then blame - and punish - them for their condition.

Seems unlikely that our merciful heavenly Father would do such a thing. Jesus tells us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. (verse 48) What we claim God will do to his enemies makes him worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor) Scripture below.

If we only love those who love us, what reward will we get? (verse 46) And then we claim God will incinerate his enemies? Say what?

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Macchiato]

Sure. How about ice cream flavors?
You can choose between chocolate and vanilla.
What's the consequence between the two?

Diabetes

 

[Saint Steven]

Diabetes

Which flavor choice gives you diabetes; chocolate or vanilla?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Sure. How about ice cream flavors?
You can choose between chocolate and vanilla.
What's the consequence between the two?

 

[aiki]

Eventually "life" happens and we need God, or the spiritual aspect in our lives.

Are you denying my friend's experience and perspective? As a complete stranger to him, you know the secret corners of his life better than he does, or than I do? Interesting.

There was a reason Jesus said that there would be few who would find him, the Narrow Way, and travel the narrow road of life with God (Matthew 7:13-14). Life is full of very pleasant, very pleasurable, alternatives to Christ and the suffering and self-sacrifice he said was integral to following after him. (Matthew 16:24-25) My friend was not unique. In modern, western societies, many go from one end of their life to the other never needing God. And these comfortable, affluent, self-sufficient folk look at the offer of the crucified life and laugh at it. If there is nothing more beyond the grave, why wouldn't they?

The person with an anchor is not adrift on the sea of uncertainty that those without God suffer from. Whether they realize they are suffering or not.

And all of this is true whether there is an afterlife or not.

I don't deny, of course, that life for many is fraught with trouble and that God can be a sheltering cove in the ocean storms of life. My point was that, without the prospect of life beyond the grave, there is far higher incentive logically to live selfishly in the now than to walk the difficult narrow way of a disciple of Jesus and diminish the pleasure one may obtain in the short, singular existence that is life in doing so. That God can be a tremendous support for people in trouble does not really diminish the force of this line of reasoning. If this temporal life was all there was, "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die," would be an eminently reasonable proposition.

What's interesting, too, is that the godless who encounter life's troubles often use those troubles, not as impetus to find God and His love and care, but to rail against Him, as proof of His cruelty and malice. I've talked with many unbelievers over the years who do just this. For them, the pain and suffering of life is further proof that the good God of the Bible must be false.

Seems unlikely that our merciful heavenly Father would do such a thing. Jesus tells us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. (verse 48) What we claim God will do to his enemies makes him worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor) Scripture below.

If we only love those who love us, what reward will we get? (verse 46) And then we claim God will incinerate his enemies? Say what?

This "merciful heavenly Father" is the One who cast Adam and Eve from Eden forever, allowing the curse of their sin to corrupt and stain the World (and you and I); He is the One who in His wrath flooded the world, drowning all but Noah and his family; He is the One who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire; He is the One who commanded his Chosen People to act as His arm of judgment and destroy the evil pagan nations who had set themselves as enemies of Israel; He is the One who opened the earth to swallow the rebellious among the Israelites; He is the One who killed all the first-born of Egypt (after setting plague after plague upon them).

So, yes, God is merciful but He isn't only so. He is also a holy God, a God of justice and judgment, which is reflected in His wrathful punishment of the unrepentant wicked in hell.

Of course, God shows love and mercy to His enemies by giving them a way through Christ to escape His holy, just wrath. No one has to go to hell. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, "the door to hell is locked from the inside." Ultimately, the man who finds himself in hell has chosen to be there.

I see God's terrible, eternal punishment of the unrepentant wicked, not as a testament to God's cruelty, but as a testament to the incredible awfulness of our sin. Just as the punishment is formed to fit the crime - mostly - in human justice, so, too, God's punishment addresses the deep wickedness of the "crime" of our sin. The punishment of hell is a testament to the true vileness, the deep evil, of our sin. Our sin, after all, is against God Himself, the Creator and Sustainer of All, the Infinite King and Lord of All Creation. If God is small in a person's eyes, the magnitude of their sin against Him will appear correspondingly small; if God's holiness is ignored or given short shrift in a person's thinking, His holy wrath meted out upon sin will seem inordinate. Hell, however, stands as a stark reminder of the "exceeding sinfulness of sin."

We are creatures born in sin, living in it, even loving it, surrounded by it in the World ruled and shaped by the devil. It is no surprise, then, that we lose perspective - God's perspective - on the nature of our sin. Being so comfortable in sin, sinners cannot understand God's severe hatred of sin. Surely, God cannot hate so much the sin we love; our sin cannot be so bad as to deserve hell. We must make God more like us; we must conform Him to our thinking such that He views our sin more like we do. But God's word remains, unchanging and clear:

Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Psalm 1:5-6
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

John 3:36
36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Luke 16:22-24
22 ...the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeing Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was hungry, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Taodeching]

That's what a Catholic might call it. I call it Universal Restoration.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Purgatory is only for the saved not the damned in Catholic thought. Catholic's do not believe in the heresy of universal restoration

 

[Saint Steven]

Purgatory is only for the saved not the damned in Catholic thought. Catholic's do not believe in the heresy of universal restoration

Well, the religious leaders of Jesus' day considered him to be heretical. Are you here to bolster the status quo?

Catholics consider UR to be heterodox mostly because it was an EO believe. (from the east, not the west) It was not so originally in the early church. The western/Latin church gave us a biased text. (the Bible)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Purgatory is only for the saved not the damned in Catholic thought. Catholic's do not believe in the heresy of universal restoration

Purgatory saves Papists from universal damnation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

42 For I was hungry, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Yikes! Hope you never walked past a beggar.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I'm still deciding on [whether] or not I believe in God....I simply believe that God is not good due to what is stated in the bible...why do you... think that God is good?

Perhaps people are mostly pretty good, but are capable of justifying horrific things to themselves?

By justification - I mean try to argue that God is on their side on this matter, or, that what they have done is acceptable.

Specifically - the early bible stories. The Israelites killing people to take the promised land - I am not surprised they thought and wrote that God was with them in this.

Do I believe God approved of the killings or ordered them? Not really.

 

[aiki]

Yikes! Hope you never walked past a beggar.

Christ sets the bar high, doesn't he? How about you? Have you ignored a beggar as you walked past him?

 

[Taodeching]

Purgatory saves Papists from universal damnation.

You really need to learn what Purgatory is, it does not save anyone and is like the toll houses in Orthodox thought. Paul even talks about something like Purgatory and you must be saved to be in Purgatory,

 

[Taodeching]

Well, the religious leaders of Jesus' day considered him to be heretical. Are you here to bolster the status quo?

Christ doesn't advocate pagan type doctrines such as you do.