[MOVED] I Don't Believe that God is Good Anymore

Saint Steven

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I simply believe that God is not good due to what is stated in the bible.
I see this as a very honest and perceptive question. Thanks for launching a topic on this important issue.

Yes; unfortunately, the "God of the Bible" that we are told about is not good. I agree. This does not mean there isn't a God. I think it means that we don't understand the God of the Bible, or that the Bible misrepresents God.

In order to "cover" for the bad part of God, we are told that he is both love and justice. As if this somehow balances things out. Like the playground bully that gave his teacher an apple. He's still a bully.

Does any of this resonate with you? Or what is it about God that you view as bad?
 
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Saint Steven

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Leaders and well-known people are mocked (anyone for that matter is mocked). A dictator is someone who sometimes takes severe action to silence (or even kill) someone who doesn't agree (or mocks) him or her. Correct me if you are wrong, but it seems like your telling me that God is really thin-skinned.
I agree. The God we are presented with appears to be a cosmic tyrant. I reject that view.
 
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IntriKate

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I know God is good and loving. In my pain and loss of my son and also my first grandson he has shown me that this life is not our home, that it is temporary and suffering makes me draw closer to him he is the only source of real peace in this world. I can't wait till he takes me out of this dark world and into his arms.
God didn t promise us we wouldn't have pain in this fallen world but he did promise he would never leave or forsake us during times of trouble. A constant companion and comfort if we would just reach out for him he will embrace us.
 
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Paul4JC

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I'm still deciding on whenever or not I believe in God or not.

I pray you get past this phase.

Job's wife had the same view...

[Job 2:9-10 NIV] 9 His wife said to him, "Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!" 10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
 
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Saint Steven

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Why do you say that means that we (Christians) will all be in hell?
What part of "everyone" don't you understand? - lol

My definition of "hell" is the restoration process that everyone will go through.

Saint Steven said:
We will be. God is GOOD!

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
 
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Strong in Him

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Saint Steven

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So why do you say that born again, Spirit filled, children of God will be in hell?

I don't believe there's any evidence for that.
I don't believe in a forever burning hell. So, this is what I mean. The test (purification) by fire. (hell) Not a loss of salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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What does it mean to you then to "hope in Jesus only" if he, God, is full of contradictions?
How do you know what to trust?



Adam chose to deliberately disobey the command that he had heard from God.
How is that anyone's fault except Adam's?



God stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac - he didn't want a child sacrifice, he wanted to see if Abraham might be prepared to give up something that was very special to him.
You realise that this is a foreshadowing of the cross? That when Abraham said, "God himself will provide the lamb for the sacrifice, my son", this was a prophecy, looking ahead to the time when God would provide a Lamb for sacrifice, his Son?



Isaac grew up to serve and worship that same God; so presumably he didn't.



Only if you don't read Scripture.
We are told exactly what the unforgiveable sin is: Jesus was driving out demons and the Pharisees said that this miracle was being done in the power of the devil, Mark 3:23-30. That was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - claiming that something done in God's power was in fact due to the evil one; giving the devil the credit for a miracle that you know was from God, Mark 3:29-30.



That's not what the Bible says; that is the interpretation of some people.



Only if you choose to reject him and the free gift that God offers, Romans 6:23.



Judas had a choice.
Whether or not he is in hell is controversial and a matter of debate - because we don't know.



"The first shall be last" is a teaching, not a parable.
Parables have more than one meaning and are ambiguous.



Christians have eternal life.
If we are tortured and killed it's because others in the world hate us, our faith, our Saviour and what we stand for. It's always been like that, and Jesus even warned us that if people hated him they would hate us too.
That doesn't mean we are going to be tortured for eternity.



Yes, eternal life - not life in this fallen, sinful world.
The teaching that Jesus died to give us all a good, comfortable, happy life here on earth, is misguided and wrong.



He didn't make anyone say anything.
That's the whole point; God doesn't force anything on us.



Join the club.
I doubt anyone can figure out the Trinity - how could we? God is eternal and infinite; we are created beings, with finite brains and understanding.



No, it isn't.



If anyone said to you "you have to understand the Trinity perfectly or you cannot be a Christian/will die", that is very bad, unscriptural teaching, and could even be child abuse - a way of manipulating you to do/believe what they wanted.
That was very much their sin and their fault - it is not Biblical teaching.



The Bible does not teach that you should honour your parents if they are abusing/beating you. And if they are manipulating you; scaring you into submission with false teachings, you don't have to agree with them.
When Jesus was "lost" in the temple, we are told that he went back with his parents and was obedient to them. He may have been very hurt that they didn't remember/realise who he was - but he still respected and was obedient to them.




Sounds like you've received some dreadful teaching in the past - but that's not Biblical.
We are not to become puffed up with pride and believe that achievements are ALL our own, nothing to do with God; but there's no harm in rejoicing in the gifts that God has given you and that sometimes you do a good job.
Paul was proud of all the churches that he founded and the people who came to faith in Jesus. God himself said that his creation was very good, not "ok"; very good.



The god that you've been taught about is not the God of the Bible.



Yes, he is.
That doesn't mean he can never rebuke, or discipline, people.



Very important.
Not the way to salvation, of course - but still important.



So asking for God's help doesn't work/isn't the answer?
That's the opposite of what the Bible, and Jesus, say. It's certainly true that we could be the answer to our own prayers, but there are many testimonies of how God has helped people in difficulties and how they've achieved things with his help that they could not otherwise have done.

Thanks for the well-thought-out response and for taking the time. Yeah, I grew up in an abusive, and yet somehow religious, home so....anyway.
 
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Saint Steven

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The God, as found in the bible, is not a good God. He is full of contradictions, and everything is our fault, even our unbelief.

You get paradise, but here's a tree for good measure, and yes, you'll fail the test. I know, because I am God. Abraham finally gets a child? Sacrifice him...okay, okay, here's a lamb. Poor Isaac. Hope he doesn't retain that memory. The world has devolved? Drown everyone. And the survivors can build their own ark and watch the others drown. You looked back? Salt you become, Lot's wife. Sorry. Free will and all.

We can commit the unforgivable sin, but aren't told what it is precisely, so we can worry endlessly about having broken it. Fun, right?

You don't believe? Your fault. Worst still, you weren't chosen, sorry. Just not one of the elect, I guess.

You believe with all your heart and obey every commandment? Well, the devil now gets God's permission to destroy everything you love, kill your children, cover you with boils and make you want to die (sorry, Job). Of course, the devil is given free reign to do everything but kill you, because that would actually be merciful! Wait, what? That's right. There's a double blessing in it for you, though, with new children, 'cause the others are dead.

Jesus dies for your sins, but you can still go to hell. Judas betrays with a kiss (like the Godfather), but he was selected for the job, poor soul.

The paradoxes, "first shall be last, last shall be first." What? If you don't get the parables, you aren't part of the club. It's not ambiguous, you're ambiguous!

And my personal favourite, as if the threat of hell weren't bad enough, the last chapter you read is about how the world ends, just to terrify you, and if you're a Christian, be prepared to be tortured and die. But I thought Jesus sacrificed so we may have life more abundantly, no? Wasn't that sacrifice enough? No? Let's all read into every ambiguous sign, then, and worry about the end days, cause that's not anxiety inducing, or anything. Throw in a secret rapture to keep you terrified daily. Throw in denominations that don't believe in the rapture. Now throw in religions that don't believe in Jesus, including the one that starts the bible, Judaism. Yeah, I feel real good about things now. But why all this anxiety?

I now find the trinity really difficult to digest, and the fact that Jesus doesn't just say he is God, but makes others say it. Then no one wants credit for crucifying him. And he is mocked with a crown. It's too much now.

Actually, my child brain couldn't understand the trinity at all and it messed with my sense of logic. That's child abuse. It also made me paranoid to believe I was being watched all the time and being judged at every turn. More child abuse. Should I be killed without repenting my last sin, hell awaits, I was told. Also, you must honour your parents, but nothing in there about child abuse. Odd, since the more vulnerable one depends on the other JUST TO SURVIVE.

Mind control. Brainwashing. You turn the other cheek. Pray for others. Forgive when they don't seek it (for your health, of course), and worry you are not good enough all the time, and when you are, don't you dare take credit! You can do nothing on your own (wow), you filthy sinner (more condemnation). Add in songs that call you a wretch saved by grace. Wait, saved by grace? So now don't worry. Sin until the last moment and then ask for forgiveness. Those law-abiding atheists are all in hell (they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus), and you can be in heaven with the rapists and the murderers. Or something. No, no that's not right, faith without deeds (works) is dead. But once saved always saved. Um. Here, wear a cross of torture around your neck instead of a crown, or something royal. It will all make sense eventually. In the meantime, argue amongst yourselves, yes?

Sorry for the long post. I admit I could have gone another five minutes, so....

TL; DR: I am convinced you are right and we've been played. The God of the bible sounds more like the one for this fallen world. The real God is pure love, and He loves you and your neighbour equally, always and forever. So love each other already and go do good things. Because just praying for someone to help doesn't make sense - you are the help. The end.
I appreciate your view on this. Calling out the stuff that most just sweep under the carpet and try to ignore. (or cover up) There is definitely something wrong with the picture we have been given. (God as cosmic tyrant)

What you have highlighted is enough to turn most away from the faith. Yet it seems that you have hung on. (unless I misunderstand) What is it that has kept you from walking away?
 
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Saint Steven

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Eden without the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would have been a place where Adam and Even had no real choice but to do as God wished them to do. Such constrained obedience would have been the obedience, not of loving children, but of prisoners. The Tree gave Adam and Eve a genuine free choice between God's will and their own, a crucial feature of expressing real love toward God.
It's not really a free choice if it comes with consequences. More like an expensive choice.

Reminds me of our flawed gospel message. Receive the free gift of eternal life. If you don't, you will be incinerated. Better do it quickly, before you get hit by a bus. (the gospel time bomb) Believe or burn. God is love.
 
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aiki

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It's not really a free choice if it comes with consequences. More like an expensive choice.

??? Can you think of a choice that doesn't come with a consequence of some kind? Why should we be able to choose against God with impunity?

Reminds me of our flawed gospel message. Receive the free gift of eternal life. If you don't, you will be incinerated. Better do it quickly, before you get hit by a bus. (the gospel time bomb) Believe or burn. God is love.

Is this the Gospel we preach? It's not the Gospel I preach.
 
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Saint Steven

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Can you think of a choice that doesn't come with a consequence of some kind?
Sure. How about ice cream flavors?
You can choose between chocolate and vanilla.
What's the consequence between the two?
 
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Saint Steven

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Is this Gospel we preach? It's not the Gospel I preach.
I'm glad you don't. But many do, or have. Fire and brimstone preaching is standard fare in some churches. And there are those who want to bring it back. They miss it.

We even had a topic on this forum that asked the question: If there was no afterlife, would you be a Christian? To my amazement, most Christians said, "No!" they would not.

Saint Steven said:
Reminds me of our flawed gospel message. Receive the free gift of eternal life. If you don't, you will be incinerated. Better do it quickly, before you get hit by a bus. (the gospel time bomb) Believe or burn. God is love.
 
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aiki

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Sure. How about ice cream flavors?
You can choose between chocolate and vanilla.
What's the consequence between the two?

If one has chosen to eat vanilla ice cream rather than chocolate, one will not be eating the chocolate ice cream, right? So, that's one consequence of making a choice between the two. Flavour and color of the ice cream are other consequences of choosing vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate. One cannot enjoy the flavour of chocolate when eating vanilla-flavoured ice cream. And, typically, vanilla ice cream is not brown like chocolate ice cream usually is. Whenever one makes a choice between things, there are always consequences of some kind.

Of course, one could mix the vanilla and chocolate ice cream, eating them together. But there are consequences to doing this, too. The flavours and colors mix, changing the ice cream so that one is not getting an unadulterated experience of either flavour or color.

I'm glad you don't. But many do, or have. Fire and brimstone preaching is standard fare in some churches. And there are those who want to bring it back. They miss it.

I've never enjoyed "fire and brimstone" preaching. The heart of the Gospel is God and His love, not hell and punishment. However, hell is a reality, the inevitable consequence of choosing Self rather than one's Maker.

We even had a topic on this forum that asked the question: If there was no afterlife, would you be a Christian? To my amazement, most Christians said, "No!" they would not.

Well, inasmuch as the glorious heart of the afterlife is God Himself, to have no afterlife would be to miss out on God. That would be a terrible prospect, in my opinion - especially in light of how little we really understand of God on this side of the grave. We see Him "through a glass darkly," as the apostle Paul put it, while we live on this globe. But in eternity we shall see Him as He is! I can't help but greatly desire this, to live in expectant hope of the moment when I shall Him without the "dark glass" in the way.

And what of Paul's remarks about the resurrection of Christ and the hope of our own resurrection and eternal life we have as a result? Paul's pretty...radical in what he had to say about the Christian if Christ was not risen. Of all people, the Christian was to be pitied, Paul wrote, if Christ did not rise. Their future hope of eternity with God was just a futile dream if Christ was still in the grave.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.


Makes sense to me. Do you think Paul got it wrong?

If there is no afterlife for anyone, what incentive is there not to live in hyper-radical selfishness, like Hitler or Stalin? God calls us to a life of self-sacrifice, to the crucified life of self-denial. Why live like this, why endure the suffering this life entails, if the end of doing so is exactly the same as the end of those who live to satisfy to the max every desire and impulse that grips them, no matter how much this requires others to suffer?

What of ultimate justice? What of those who live evil lives that are filled with worldly success - wealth, power, notoriety - and who die never having to answer to any form of justice for their wicked living?
 
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Saint Steven

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I've never enjoyed "fire and brimstone" preaching. The heart of the Gospel is God and His love, not hell and punishment. However, hell is a reality, the inevitable consequence of choosing Self rather than one's Maker.
Do you believe that the elect were predestined?
 
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Saint Steven

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... If there is no afterlife for anyone, what incentive is there not to live in hyper-radical selfishness, like Hitler or Stalin? ...
That was the majority sentiment on the topic. If there is no afterlife, there's no reason to be a Christian. Sad report. No value for the Christian life this side of the afterlife. I disagree, of course.
 
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aiki

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Don't get me wrong: There are many blessings, walking with God in this life. But, those blessings come amid suffering and sacrifice. In fact, one cannot truly follow Christ and not suffer and sacrifice as he did. If the end of such a life is the very same end as the most evil, selfish, self-gratifying life, how is a God-centered life better than this evil sort of life?

I'm not a Calvinist. God's foreknowledge does not necessitate that He must be the cause of what He foreknows. To think that foreknowledge equals causation is to make a fundamental mistake in modal logic.

Believers are elect in The Elect, who is Christ. Why do you ask about predestination?
 
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Saint Steven

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Don't get me wrong: There are many blessings, walking with God in this life. But, those blessings come amid suffering and sacrifice. In fact, one cannot truly follow Christ and not suffer and sacrifice as he did. If the end of such a life is the very same end as the most evil, selfish, self-gratifying life, how is a God-centered life better than this evil sort of life?
The benefits of a God-centered life outweigh the benefits without one. Even if there is no afterlife. To walk with God is to live the abundant life that we are promised. It seems that most Christians aren't living that abundant life. They see no value of being saved in the here and now. Tragic really.
 
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