[moved from Spirit-Filled/Charismatic]Things WOF and non-WOF disagree on.

[franky67]

Of course non of them were Christians!

They could not be!

Jesus had not gone to the cross yet so the new birth was not available.

God heals the unsaved today as well.

However, healing belongs to the Christian as It was included in the work of the cross. It is by faith just as it was then. Some think it is God's will they be sick.

Thanks, max, I also would like to add that Jesus' healings were fulfilling the prophetic words of Isaiah in Chapter 53, and Matthew 8:16,17
And if we read the Hebrew version of Isaiah , we see that in addition to our sins, Jesus took our sicknesses and diseases, Although King James calls them griefs and sorrows.

It is also interesting to see that when Jesus healed the woman in the temple bent over for 18 years, He explained that she was entitled to be healed, because she was a daughter of Abraham, and as such, an heir to the promises given in the Abrahamic covenant. Ref. Luke 13:16

Healing provided in the old covenant, and in the new covenant.

IF, and it's a big if, healing is not included in the work of the cross, and God decides to heal one of us, where is this taught in the new testament as to how we call on God to heal us, if not through Jesus.

In dealing with His children, whether it's in the new testament, or the old, God ministers to his people by covenant, no other way.

I have asked the Mods to move this thread to the debate forum, sorry if I l have offended anyone by placing it here.

 

[Optimax]

Thanks, max, I also would like to add that Jesus' healings were fulfilling the prophetic words of Isaiah in Chapter 53, and Matthew 8:16,17
And if we read the Hebrew version of Isaiah , we see that in addition to our sins, Jesus took our sicknesses and diseases, Although King James calls them griefs and sorrows.

It is also interesting to see that when Jesus healed the woman in the temple bent over for 18 years, He explained that she was entitled to be healed, because she was a daughter of Abraham, and as such, an heir to the promises given in the Abrahamic covenant. Ref. Luke 13:16

Healing provided in the old covenant, and in the new covenant.

IF, and it's a big if, healing is not included in the work of the cross, and God decides to heal one of us, where is this taught in the new testament as to how we call on God to heal us, if not through Jesus.

In dealing with His children, whether it's in the new testament, or the old, God ministers to his people by covenant, no other way.

I have asked the Mods to move this thread to the debate forum, sorry if I l have offended anyone by placing it here.

Didn't hear but one "unhappy camper". No problem to me.

 

[probinson]

to infer (nicest word I can think of for it)
that because I am not WOF,
that I and others non WOF believe
in a God of wrath, not a God of love...
is a false message...
(other inferences too were made,
but will deal with just this one)​

I'd like to add to the list, WoF people know how to properly use the terms "infer" and "imply", whereas apparently non-WoF people don't.

 

[Alive_Again]

Really, WOF is typically some baggage that other Christians choose to carry based on extremes that some have taken certain scriptures to. There is no "WOF" denomination. Taken in balance, probably everything something who would claim to be WOF would list as a claim, has a scriptural precedent that someone does not agree with. It's a matter of opinion.

1. Positive confession. franky67

Might be the most known "controversy". If just PMA or something along those lines, it is only wordly mind over matter; scientology, that could even border on witchcraft.

If you look at scriptures on your words, you realize they have the potential for blessing or cursing. There are more scriptures on words than just about anything else. Let's call "positive" words that God agrees with. Let's call them blessings. Let's say "negative" as something corrupt and "froward", disagreeing with the plan of God. If you're walking (and talking) by "faith" (dirty word), then your "positive confession" is really just agreeing with God regardless of your circumstances. Take Abraham as Paul's example. (It's inconvenient to hear this because we're told to imitate Abraham's faith as one who pleased God with his report/confession/words. If we're talking about Christians and not the world, why let the enemy pour his crappy seasoning on God's meat and then judge it as something distasteful?

2. Healing is available to every Christian, as it was included in Jesus' work on the cross. Optimax

If you can ask for whatever you want if you meet the conditions, why exclude healing? Jesus didn't. His actions proved otherwise. If there are exceptions why aren't they listed? Also, isn't everything we receive "in Christ" as a result of what He did for us? Does it seem extreme?

One step further, if you have to receive by faith, it behooves you to learn how to get and walk in faith to inherit the promises. Maybe that's why people who preach faith more tend to have it and live with more "privilege"?

3. God prospers His children. Allen1901

Would any other father do less? Doesn't the Word say that father's should provide for their children or be worse than an infidel? If God meets all of our needs (I won't even quote the scripture), then why get offended if someone does well. It's only covetousness/love of money that makes "riches" evil. If someone "trusts in riches", it's not God providing them. We're not to judge others. Can we not just believe in our needs being met? Is that too much? Have not because you ask not! I'm not ashamed to tell you.

I would add to the objections Christians have against what they perceive to be "WOF" is that faith is mentioned a lot. If WOF people forget above love (can't say that they do) then their belief is not true faith. I'll let God be God and let Him judge other Christians.

 

[Leah]

Of course non of them were Christians!

They could not be!

Jesus had not gone to the cross yet so the new birth was not available.

You know, I so didn't even think things through. You're absolutely right. Duh Leah?

God heals the unsaved today as well.

Ok.

However, healing belongs to the Christian as it was included in the work of the cross. It is by faith just as it was then. Some think it is God's will they be sick.

Well, God is in control of everything, right? So when someone gets sicks, wouldn't He be in control of that too? Not to say that it's His will for us to be sick just because. I'm just saying that to say that sickness is outside of His sovereignty isn't even biblical.

I'm sorry but I recall Job. God was in control of what happened to him and what He didn't allow to happen, was He not?

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON

Hey. This thread has been moved from the Spirit-Filled/Charismatic Subforum to it's child forum, the debate area. Staff has reached consensus that it is better suited for this area. Please continue your discussion here, and enjoy!

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[pdudgeon]

can i add #4 to the original list....that God is good.

don't think i've heard that one except from WOF.

 

[pdudgeon]

Well, God is in control of everything, right? So when someone gets sicks, wouldn't He be in control of that too? Not to say that it's His will for us to be sick just because. I'm just saying that to say that sickness is outside of His sovereignty isn't even biblical.

I'm sorry but I recall Job. God was in control of what happened to him and what He didn't allow to happen, was He not?

i think that these are actually two different issues---God's control, and the issue of sickness.

i would agree with the issue of God's control, but we have to remember that it is satan who is on a mission to kill, steal, and destroy all of God's creation.
so from where i sit the sickness is sent by satan and allowed in or not by the person to whom it was sent. God is the one who comes along afterward and changes the outcome of everything satan sent, so that it is good instead of evil. a case in point would be Lazarus.

now for those who would throw out the instances of God's causing sickness to happen, my reply would be that those were sent as judgements upon whom they landed. i can't remember any cases where sickness was sent from God with the intention of it resulting in the death of the person. If God's judgement was death, then that's what He sent.

 

[JIMOH]

Many non-Wof, because of incorrect preconceptions about God, choose to frame Him as the author of evil in the world. He is our enemy and we His victims. Of course they do not spell it out in such clear terms... but the reality is that the God of the anti-wof is pretty nasty.... certain far from the loving Father that Jesus showed us.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Well, God is in control of everything, right? So when someone gets sicks, wouldn't He be in control of that too? Not to say that it's His will for us to be sick just because. I'm just saying that to say that sickness is outside of His sovereignty isn't even biblical.

I'm sorry but I recall Job. God was in control of what happened to him and what He didn't allow to happen, was He not?

Is God in control of everything? I think not.

Does God control whether I choose heaven or hell?

Does God control the pedophile who rapes a child?

Does God control the bacteria that causes Leprosy (Hansens Disease)?

Not at all.

If God controlled all things then there would be no free will. This would all be a charade orchestrated by a cruel God with a microscope, frying humans like a boy frying ants.

And that is not the God I serve.

Peace...

 

[lismore]

What about the 'little gods' teachings?

 

[dkbwarrior]

What about the 'little gods' teachings?

That is a good point, and is really just another sypmptom of the whole.

Of course, not all WOF subscribe to this teaching, and even those who do don't mean by the statement that they think they are YHWH, or that they are like God in the sense of attributes or scope.

What they actually mean is the same thing that orthodox christianity teaches, that we are like God in essence; (He is a Spirit, and we are a spirit); and that we are like God in operation, (we have a free will and the ability to excercise dominion, just as God has a free will and the ability to excercise dominion).

Most Non-WOF would agree with most of the little god teaching if WOF simply didn't use the term little god. The phrase just ruffles their religious feathers beyond measure. In fact, some just can't stand it!

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

Of course, WOF is reigning in the living church in spite of its detractors. I was recently listening to a sermon by a pastor from a very Old and mainline denomination, and was amazed to hear WOF principles coming out of his teaching.

WOF, much like the charismatic movement before it has infected the entire church. It has done so because it is not a denomination, but rather a movement, and crosses denominational lines.

Like the charismatic movement before it, their have been many excesses, which the critics have tried to use to delegitimize the whole, (and many critics have been guilty of presenting false witness by claiming that WOF believes things that it does not, and using this to promote their personal agendas and ministries, which they also did with the charismatic movement, the pentecostal movement, and the evangelical movement before that). Yet the movement has continued to thrive and expand, as the others did.

This move of God has caused faith to be redefined for the entire church over the past generation, and it needed to be. When God decides to do something, no one can stop it. All they can do is complain.

Peace...

 

[TasManOfGod]

What about the 'little gods' teachings?

The more we move away from being "little gods" the more we move away from being Christ like (or for us having the mind of Christ)

 

[New_Wineskin]

I don't apologize for it, believing Christianity would have been better off had WoF never existed.

It was inevitable . People keep calling the Scriptures "the word of God" . So , when reading the Scriptures and coming across the term "the word" or "the word of God" they consider that the Scriptures are talking about themselves . From those passages with a generous sprinkling of the "Scriptural Authority" doctrine , people would eventually come to wof doctrines .

Most or every wof teaching/doctrine makes sense to me based on what passages they use and the background of their previously expressed doctrines .

 

[JIMOH]

What about the 'little gods' teachings?

Better than the "half god half man, good tree bad tree, sinful God" teaching that infect 90% of christianity.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"However, in my view positive confession is basically equivalent to magic"

Sometimes it is. There's TWO major versions of WoF.

TOXIC WoF teaches a person to PRETEND that he "has faith" (when he doesn't), and PART of that pretense is the "Positive profession" foolishness - where you try to PROVE TO GOD that you "have Faith" that He'll do something that you PRESUME that He's promised you.

There's a "Metaphysical" lunatic fringe branch to TOXIC WoF that actually teaches that your "Words possess creative power". This, of course is total stupidity (based on the TOXIC "Little gods" idiocy).

BUT

In the case of BIBLICAL WoF, If you HAVE BIBLICAL Faith, and KNOW in faith that you HAVE what you've prayed for, then the "Positive profession" is simply you giving TESTIMONY about what you KNOW that the Lord has done - NOT to "Make it happen", but because you know it HAS HAPPENED - even though you haven't seen it yet.

A case in point was a fellow in my Bible study 30 years ago - 24 years old, newly married, and with a 4 month old baby girl - and with stage 4 cancer - got sent home from the hospital to die with pain medication after the chemo didn't work. Probably had weeks left - white as a sheet, hairless, cold. And NOT "WoF" in any sense of the word. The family was "United Church of Christ", and just starting to learn the basics of the Word of God.

And God told his mother (in terms she could understand) that he'd be O.K.

And she testified in my Bible study that he'd been healed, and would be O.K. I didn't know one way or another, personally, but we followed her lead, and prayed that week (and in the following weeks) THANKING GOD for his provision of healing that He'd told he mother about. We didn't ASK for him to be healed - that was already done, so we thanked the Lord for the healing in FAITH (hers, not mine).

And he simply got better. And a year later was pronounced Cancer free, and 30 years later he was a deacon in the church as St Mary's Ohio.

SO whether a "positive profession" is "Magic", or "Spell casting" - or a TRUE CONFESSION OF WHAT GOD HAS DONE - all depends on WHY it's being confessed.

AT the same time a WoF church family in Wapakoneta, OH had their son become ill, and they presumptively did all the prescribed WoF practices - "Believe God" for healing, Professed the Word, "Claimed" the healing, Praised God for his provision, and the Church prayed with him - as the son got worse, and worse until the father finally buckled and rushed him to the hospital - too late.

And like TOXIC WoF churches do, the pastor told him that he'd murdered his son with his "Unbelief". 40 years later, you can finally talk to him about God - safely.

And that's the contrast between the two versions of Word-Faith.

 

[dkbwarrior]

"However, in my view positive confession is basically equivalent to magic"

Sometimes it is. There's TWO major versions of WoF.

TOXIC WoF teaches a person to PRETEND that he "has faith" (when he doesn't), and PART of that pretense is the "Positive profession" foolishness - where you try to PROVE TO GOD that you "have Faith" that He'll do something that you PRESUME that He's promised you.

There's a "Metaphysical" lunatic fringe branch to TOXIC WoF that actually teaches that your "Words possess creative power". This, of course is total stupidity (based on the TOXIC "Little gods" idiocy).

BUT

In the case of BIBLICAL WoF, If you HAVE BIBLICAL Faith, and KNOW in faith that you HAVE what you've prayed for, then the "Positive profession" is simply you giving TESTIMONY about what you KNOW that the Lord has done - NOT to "Make it happen", but because you know it HAS HAPPENED - even though you haven't seen it yet.

A case in point was a fellow in my Bible study 30 years ago - 24 years old, newly married, and with a 4 month old baby girl - and with stage 4 cancer - got sent home from the hospital to die with pain medication after the chemo didn't work. Probably had weeks left - white as a sheet, hairless, cold. And NOT "WoF" in any sense of the word. The family was "United Church of Christ", and just starting to learn the basics of the Word of God.

And God told his mother (in terms she could understand) that he'd be O.K.

And she testified in my Bible study that he'd been healed, and would be O.K. I didn't know one way or another, personally, but we followed her lead, and prayed that week (and in the following weeks) THANKING GOD for his provision of healing that He'd told he mother about. We didn't ASK for him to be healed - that was already done, so we thanked the Lord for the healing in FAITH (hers, not mine).

And he simply got better. And a year later was pronounced Cancer free, and 30 years later he was a deacon in the church as St Mary's Ohio.

SO whether a "positive profession" is "Magic", or "Spell casting" - or a TRUE CONFESSION OF WHAT GOD HAS DONE - all depends on WHY it's being confessed.

AT the same time a WoF church family in Wapakoneta, OH had their son become ill, and they presumptively did all the prescribed WoF practices - "Believe God" for healing, Professed the Word, "Claimed" the healing, Praised God for his provision, and the Church prayed with him - as the son got worse, and worse until the father finally buckled and rushed him to the hospital - too late.

And like TOXIC WoF churches do, the pastor told him that he'd murdered his son with his "Unbelief". 40 years later, you can finally talk to him about God - safely.

And that's the contrast between the two versions of Word-Faith.

I think that this is a very good post. (Aside from the little gods comment-I think it really depends what you mean when you agree with the scripture that says "ye are gods". I think there is a toxic and non-toxic [to use your phraseology] view of that also).

To be fair to the critics, I believe that alot of this came out of the fact that the Word of Faith movement started with only partial revelation, as all moves of God seem to do. Things were said that sometimes crossed the line, or more often, were only partially explained, so that some heard things that were not really intended to be heard that way. Others ran with the misinformation and went into ministry themselves, and what you have aptly called toxic Word of Faith ensued.

For instance. Not going to the doctor. I believe God for the health of myself and my family. However, I take my kids to the doctor. And I go to the doctor. Why? Because even though healing is a promise of God, and I believe that promise of God, I also accept that my faith is not perfected. I am not going to risk the life of my child on the presumption that my faith is perfect, or that I know everything there is to know about healing.

That father that you mentioned didn't kill his child, the thief killed his child. You don't blame the victim of a crime for not having the ability to prevent the crime. You blame the thief. That father did the best he knew how with the information that he had. The problem was, he didn't have all the information, or more probably, he had some wrong information.

In any case, Word of Faith is what Paul preached. I don't see how a person can call themselves a christian and be against the Word of Faith. However, I do understand that most of those that self describe themselves as Non-Word of Faith wouldn't consider that they are against what the Bible calls the Word of Faith, but rather what they perceive as the excesses of the modern day Word of Faith movement from their personal experiences and/or what they have heard.

The only problem with this is that by default they are attempting to define the whole movement by the excesses, which often ends up in the critic inadvertently bearing false witness agianst the whole. This would be fine if they followed the biblical injunctions against judging your brother, but instead, individuals and ministries have made it their life and ministry focus to paint the entire movement with this broad brush. And I personally believe that this kind of judgement is much more dangerous to ones walk with God than having some bad or excessive doctrine. We all have problems with our doctrine. And we will all get straightened out in the end. In the meantime, we need to love one another in the unity of the faith.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

It was inevitable . People keep calling the Scriptures "the word of God" . So , when reading the Scriptures and coming across the term "the word" or "the word of God" they consider that the Scriptures are talking about themselves . From those passages with a generous sprinkling of the "Scriptural Authority" doctrine , people would eventually come to wof doctrines .

Most or every wof teaching/doctrine makes sense to me based on what passages they use and the background of their previously expressed doctrines .

You and I don't agree on much doctrinally, but I agree with this post wholeheartedly.

If one believes that the scriptures are the Word of God, it is pretty much impossible not to come to Word of Faith doctrine, unless you just ignore large parts of the scripture.

If one believes that the scriptures are not the Word of God, or that the scriptures only contain the Word of God (meaning some of them are not the Word of God), then other outcomes for doctrine become options. This occurs because the individual is then free to choose what they like and throw the rest away as irrelevent.

Of course, it is never that simple in practice. I can think of many people that will say that they believe the Bible is the Word of God, yet also say they are not Word of Faith. However, in my opinion, those people are not accepting the scriptures in practice as the Word of God, only in theory. That is, in word, but not in deed.

Peace...

NOTE:
I could add that the scriptures refer to themselves as the Word of God in a dozen or more places...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Jesus said this;

Mark 11:23-24

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
KJV"

And the PROBLEM is that folks Who CAN'T meet the clearly stated conditions, try to get the "provision" anyway.

V23 - SHALL NOT DOUBT IN HIS HEART
V24 - BELIEVE THAT YE RECIEVE THEM

Folks trying to follow TOXIC WoF teachings ask WITH Doubt, and can't really BELIEVE that they "receive them". It's called PRESUMPTION.

So how do you NOT DOUBT - what you doubt, and BELIEVE - what you don't really believe?????

TOXIC WoF teaches their folks to "Pretend to believe" - and then BLAMES THEM when it doesn't happen.