[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

Luke17:37 said:

I didn't say that you were foolish etc

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I'm glad. Just watch applying those verses to fellow Christians that disagree with you, as they're really about people who probably understood the parables intellectually (like the Pharisees understanding Jesus claim to be the messiah), but just didn't want to accept the gospel claim into their hearts. Plenty of atheists and agnostics and various kinds of deists can understand the parables intellectually. But true understanding embraces them and fears God as a result.


But seek how? We're both reading the same bible. Are you claiming some extra spiritual kazoom will be bestowed upon you when you pray that will give you superior reading skills? If not, then what? As for me, I prefer good biblical scholarship like Dr Paul Barnett's "Apocalypse now and then" that tells me about how John's generation would have understood John's message to them and about them in their common persecution from Rome. It's called hermeneutics, and is one of the first skills you learn at bible college.

Jonestown.
Waco, Texas.
Hail Bop commet.
All these sprung from futurism.

When I look at this Scripture in context, I believe Jesus is talking about the time just before His appearing (Matthew 24:29-30). And the signs and fulfillment will come upon one generation. Since Jesus didn't return to the generation who saw the destruction of Jerusalem, there has to be a future fulfillment.


Matthew 24:33–34 (NKJV)
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

"These things" = destruction of the church. The Roman invasion in AD70 was local, predictable, and escapable. Jesus wanted them to DO something: run away! Can you run away from the end of the world? Can you run away from Judgement Day? No! It's universal. But the destruction of Jerusalem was local, predictable (when the Romans surrounded the city) and escapable. Jesus wanted them to RUN AWAY! You can't run away from Judgement Day. Go back and have another look.

"That day" = UNIVERSAL, INESCAPABLE, like lightening from East to West. But way off in the future.

"These things" = the temple the disciples were looking at with their eyes and that Jesus predicted would be destroyed and that historically WAS destroyed in AD70. The Roman soldiers erected an Eagle standard and sacrificed to it. The abomination!

Exactly! You know that metaphors can describe reality though? "What light from yonder window breaks..." means Juliet felt like a shining light, the sun at dawn, to Romeo. She was beautiful to him in a very real and literal way.
But what's more real to John's generation? The whole book being metaphors about the Roman empire actually persecuting them, and it being absolutely full of positive encouragement for them, ultimately reminding them of the gospel promise that the Lord will one day return? Or basically saying, "Gee, you guys think you've got it rough, wait till I tell you about what happens in 2000 years?" That's absurd, cold, and heartless!

Exactly! They are real plagues. North Korea is real. The famines in Ethiopia are real. The temptation to worship money in the west is real. This time of tribulation that John shared with the Christians of Asia Minor 2000 years ago, and continues through until the Lord returns, is real. The "Last Days" are real: we've been in them for 2000 years (see Acts 2).
Correction: was a real thing: probably arena tickets that they used to enter the circus to worship the local Proconsul at games where Christians were slaughtered (Dr Paul Barnett). You said it was about what would soon take place. That's exactly right!
But is it practical to imply this is a once-for-all special event at the end of history that the rest of us can forget? How about we all argue over whether or not we are the Last generation? How about we forget that Roman Christians were forced to wear this mark in the form of a stone that got them into the games, and that the evil trinity of Satan, The Roman Emperor, and the religious Proconsul of Asia Minor were asking people to trust them and not God, and that something roughly the same could happen at any time in history to Christians? We distort their example by ignoring it and placing it as some once-for-all event in the future. It's not. EG: Dietrich Bonhoeffer died refusing to wear the 'mark' as much as any first century Roman! Be warned. It could happen at any time and any place. It's not one grand event some time in the future.

eclipsenow said:

I'm glad. Just watch applying those verses to fellow Christians that disagree with you, as they're really about people who probably understood the parables intellectually (like the Pharisees understanding Jesus claim to be the messiah), but just didn't want to accept the gospel claim into their hearts. Plenty of atheists and agnostics and various kinds of deists can understand the parables intellectually. But true understanding embraces them and fears God as a result.

No, I am not saying that about you at all. I'm just saying I think that's why end times prophecy has so many interpretations, because it needs to be spiritually revealed. God is not making it so obvious such that everyone who casually reads the Scripture will understand--only those who seek. Please understand I was not attacking you.​

But seek how? We're both reading the same bible. Are you claiming some extra spiritual kazoom will be bestowed upon you when you pray that will give you superior reading skills? If not, then what? As for me, I prefer good biblical scholarship like Dr Paul Barnett's "Apocalypse now and then" that tells me about how John's generation would have understood John's message to them and about them in their common persecution from Rome. It's called hermeneutics, and is one of the first skills you learn at bible college.

If you really care, I think chapter 2-3 applied to John's generation, but also to the Church through the ages. I don't understand why you are so upset.​

Jonestown.
Waco, Texas.
Hail Bop commet.
All these sprung from futurism.

When I look at this Scripture in context, I believe Jesus is talking about the time just before His appearing (Matthew 24:29-30). And the signs and fulfillment will come upon one generation. Since Jesus didn't return to the generation who saw the destruction of Jerusalem, there has to be a future fulfillment.


Matthew 24:33–34 (NKJV)
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

"These things" = destruction of the church. The Roman invasion in AD70 was local, predictable, and escapable. Jesus wanted them to DO something: run away! Can you run away from the end of the world? Can you run away from Judgement Day? No! It's universal. But the destruction of Jerusalem was local, predictable (when the Romans surrounded the city) and escapable. Jesus wanted them to RUN AWAY! You can't run away from Judgement Day. Go back and have another look.

"That day" = UNIVERSAL, INESCAPABLE, like lightening from East to West. But way off in the future.

"These things" = the temple the disciples were looking at with their eyes and that Jesus predicted would be destroyed and that historically WAS destroyed in AD70. The Roman soldiers erected an Eagle standard and sacrificed to it. The abomination!

Oh, well. We disagree. Revelation 1:1 says that it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show His servants what will soon take place. This sounds like practical, literal instruction, not symbolic. ​

Exactly! You know that metaphors can describe reality though? "What light from yonder window breaks..." means Juliet felt like a shining light, the sun at dawn, to Romeo. She was beautiful to him in a very real and literal way.
But what's more real to John's generation? The whole book being metaphors about the Roman empire actually persecuting them, and it being absolutely full of positive encouragement for them, ultimately reminding them of the gospel promise that the Lord will one day return? Or basically saying, "Gee, you guys think you've got it rough, wait till I tell you about what happens in 2000 years?" That's absurd, cold, and heartless!

I believe these are real plagues and that Jesus told us about them so we would be prepared to endure, not just tribulation in general, but during this actual time of tribulation. ​

Exactly! They are real plagues. North Korea is real. The famines in Ethiopia are real. The temptation to worship money in the west is real. This time of tribulation that John shared with the Christians of Asia Minor 2000 years ago, and continues through until the Lord returns, is real. The "Last Days" are real: we've been in them for 2000 years (see Acts 2).

I believe the mark of the beast is a real thing that will be required for buying and selling and people who take it will face God's eternal wrath. ​

Correction: was a real thing: probably arena tickets that they used to enter the circus to worship the local Proconsul at games where Christians were slaughtered (Dr Paul Barnett). You said it was about what would soon take place. That's exactly right!

It's practical to know that Christians can't, and that they must be willing to die, even be beheaded, in order to maintain their obedience to Jesus in this crucial matter.​

But is it practical to imply this is a once-for-all special event at the end of history that the rest of us can forget? How about we all argue over whether or not we are the Last generation? How about we forget that Roman Christians were forced to wear this mark in the form of a stone that got them into the games, and that the evil trinity of Satan, The Roman Emperor, and the religious Proconsul of Asia Minor were asking people to trust them and not God, and that something roughly the same could happen at any time in history to Christians? We distort their example by ignoring it and placing it as some once-for-all event in the future. It's not. EG: Dietrich Bonhoeffer died refusing to wear the 'mark' as much as any first century Roman! Be warned. It could happen at any time and any place. It's not one grand event some time in the future.

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Yes, the Christians of that day saw Jerusalem surrounded by Rome, but in the future it will be Jerusalem surrounded by the huge multi-national army (just before the battle of Armageddon, sixth trumpet, seventh trumpet), and I think there will probably be another army before that.

If a passage makes sense literally, I take it literally.
Sometimes it has a dual literal and spiritual application (such as Genesis 22, which literally happened to Abraham but also pointed to Christ). If it can't be literal at all (for example, the seven heads and ten horns on the beast), then I take it as symbolic, however, I still see the beast as a physical entity, not some invisible enemy.

I've taken two semesters of seminary (Hebrew), but that's all. A lot of the schools I otherwise respect teach pre-tribulation rapture and I refuse to be silenced so I will probably not go to those schools. The seminary I attended before made me promise not to discuss my non-belief in pre-Tribulation rapture at the school, as a condition of my enrollment. Plus, going to seminary isn't really something God has put on my heart to do right now. I'm mostly interested in Hebrew and Greek.

I believe in a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the return of Christ.

eclipsenow said:

I'm glad. Just watch applying those verses to fellow Christians that disagree with you, as they're really about people who probably understood the parables intellectually (like the Pharisees understanding Jesus claim to be the messiah), but just didn't want to accept the gospel claim into their hearts. Plenty of atheists and agnostics and various kinds of deists can understand the parables intellectually. But true understanding embraces them and fears God as a result.

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I remember the day my English professor (who routinely mocked the Christian faith) had to teach one of Jesus' parables for our literature class. He complained that it made no sense, and I explained the parable in plain language. Still, he kept saying, "I don't understand; I don't understand; I don't understand." It was really sad. It was kind of horrifying to see how he was blinded.

eclipsenow said:

As the ocean contains contain enough uranium to run the world for a billion years, and as water halves radiation every 15cm so that a lethal dose is hardly trouble within a few metres, and as the Fukushima zone could mostly be resettled, as our bodies themselves are radioactive enough that married couples give each other an x-ray worth of radiation each year as they sleep next to each other, it's not an issue.


We are richer than we've ever been in the privileged west. But the starvation we do see? That's described in Revelation. That's been a part of the world for 2000 years. What's new?


If they stopped importing oil at $600 billion a year, and legislated that all cars should be electric (as the Netherlands are doing by 2025!), then you'd reclaim $6 trillion a decade! A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money!


If we get it right, gene splicing could help feed the world.


Normal. Jesus discussed it happening 2000 years ago, and the Last Days started at Pentecost. (Acts2)


Meh. No different to Corinth. No different to the general description of people being 'lovers of themselves' and all that in Peter. Death and sin and Satan still reign, even as Jesus reigns from heaven and his kingdom expands and reigns in his church.


Of course. We're the SPECIAL ones! As I said under point 7 above....

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the special last generation.

Revelation: the best book in the bible for self-indulgent navel gazing and speculation about today's headlines. Speculate while it lasts! And lasts... and lasts.

Seriously, the Lord could return in 5 seconds, in 500 years, or in 50,000 years. Or He could have returned 1000 years ago! There's nothing left to be done. He fulfilled everything on the cross. It's all ready. The game is won. We're in overtime, just playing for extra points for our team.

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Postvieww previous post blue
eclipsenow black
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Postvieww said: ↑

How normal is the potential destruction and severe damage already to the Ocean caused by Fukushima

eclipsenow said:
As the ocean contains contain enough uranium to run the world for a billion years, and as water halves radiation every 15cm so that a lethal dose is hardly trouble within a few metres, and as the Fukushima zone could mostly be resettled, as our bodies themselves are radioactive enough that married couples give each other an x-ray worth of radiation each year as they sleep next to each other, it's not an issue.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/28-signs-that-the-west-coast-is-being-absolutely-fried-with-nuclear-radiation-from-fukushima/5355280

how normal is the collapse of economies around the world

We are richer than we've ever been in the privileged west. But the starvation we do see? That's described in Revelation. That's been a part of the world for 2000 years. What's new?

Revelation 3:17-19

I cannot speak to what it is like in Australia but maybe you should tell that to Greece, Germany, Puerto Rico, and many others.

how long do you think the US can sustain this massive debt load without going into default and total collapse?

If they stopped importing oil at $600 billion a year, and legislated that all cars should be electric (as the Netherlands are doing by 2025!), then you'd reclaim $6 trillion a decade! A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money!

If frogs had wings they would fly. Do you really think this is going to happen?

How normal is genetic manipulation and the mixing of species?

If we get it right, gene splicing could help feed the world.

This mentality plays right into the delusion that we can create utopia here ourselves without God.

Some are even talking about creating life and god men.

Genesis 3: 3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:


3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


How normal is the earth quake frequency?


Normal. Jesus discussed it happening 2000 years ago, and the Last Days started at Pentecost. (Acts2)


We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Sounds like you are trivializing what Jesus said in Mathew 24:7. If we are 2000 years into the last days where must we be now?



How normal is blatant in your face witchcraft that was just a few short years ago at least in the closet.


Speaking of the closet how about the open and widely accepted gay life style and the declarations that either God is not enraged or that there is no God. How about the sacrificing of unborn babies routinely how normal is that?


Meh. No different to Corinth. No different to the general description of people being 'lovers of themselves' and all that in Peter. Death and sin and Satan still reign, even as Jesus reigns from heaven and his kingdom expands and reigns in his church.

I guess Paul didn’t know what he was talking about. You seem to be forgetting about the falling away Paul spoke of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 1 Timothy 4:1



2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


What Paul was talking about was a time yet future, Acts 2 was behind him. “Shall come”


2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,


3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,


4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;


5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,


7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.


9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.


10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,


11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.


12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


My brother utopia is not yet here and will not be until Christ returns.


13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


It is different than Corinth, Paul said it would be “worse and worse” in that future time he spoke of in verse 1.


Yes there have been those who have set dates ignorantly and failed but that does not change where we are in history.


Of course. We're the SPECIAL ones! As I said under point 7 above....


* Covenant Amils see Revelation as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.

* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.


Part of it was written for John’s day, Revelation 1:11. Chapters 2 & 3 were written specifically to those churches in that day, but contain truths applicable to any church.


It should be quiet obvious the bulk of the book is for the future generation that will live through it. Revelation 1:1


* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.


What is the practical, symbolic, applicable, encouraging stuff listed in Revelation 13, especially verse 7?


* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the special last generation.


The generation in which you live may be more special than you realize. Apparently you use it to ignore the world crashing in around you.


Revelation: the best book in the bible for self-indulgent navel gazing and speculation about today's headlines. Speculate while it lasts! And lasts... and lasts.


2 Peter 3:3


Seriously, the Lord could return in 5 seconds, in 500 years, or in 50,000 years.


The above statement cannot be scripturally supported. I would be interested how you can back any of that up. Matthew 24:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:3


Or He could have returned 1000 years ago!


You can’t be serious. Where is He? Maybe you could provide some historical record, photo or something.


There's nothing left to be done. He fulfilled everything on the cross. It's all ready. The game is won.


Our redemption was bought and paid for at the cross. That work is finished. John 19:30

Revelation 10:7, The mystery of God is not yet finished. Revelation 16:17 the finality of the 7th vial is not yet finished. Nor has Jesus returned yet the second time as He promised. Much is unfulfilled.


We're in overtime, just playing for extra points for our team.


I would say we are on borrowed time.


Global Warming is now so serious I am convinced that we will have to use SPICE** to save civilisation. Our grandchildren may be forced to paint the skies white! Blue skies may not be permitted for many centuries to come! Clean energy has been too little too late. We have failed. Our grandchildren will curse us for ignorant fools.


Global warming as presented by the global elite is a farce designed to fleece the public out or their money and freedom.


** (Stratospheric Particle Injection for Climate Engineer

Luke17:37 said:

Yes, the Christians of that day saw Jerusalem surrounded by Rome, but in the future....

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Woah there. Jesus said "These things" would happen that generation!

Jesus starts off talking about the temple being destroyed. The disciples asked about that, and then assumed that something so traumatic surely meant the end of the age! So Jesus pauses to talk about not being deceived about his return because it will be universal and inescapable, like lightning from the east to the west.

But what happens next?


So, "These things" = Rome gathering around, local judgement on Israel and temple, and Jesus wants them to run away!
"That day" = universal judgement, no escape except for believers.

Heads and horns and eyes and all the numbers in Revelation are part of biblical symbolism, and to miss them is to miss the meaning of the passage!

You have not answered my posts with any substantive counter-arguments to justify a futurist reading of Revelation. Just asserting something does not prove something. Where does the book of Revelation add 2000 years? John says "Now", "Near", "Soon", and that he "Shares their tribulation" all in the first chapter! You have not addressed this. I don't see 2000 years added anywhere!

eclipsenow said:

Woah there. Jesus said "These things" would happen that generation!

Matthew 24
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

....2 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.​

Jesus starts off talking about the temple being destroyed. The disciples asked about that, and then assumed that something so traumatic surely meant the end of the age! So Jesus pauses to talk about not being deceived about his return because it will be universal and inescapable, like lightning from the east to the west.

But what happens next?

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.​

So, "These things" = Rome gathering around, local judgement on Israel and temple, and Jesus wants them to run away!
"That day" = universal judgement, no escape except for believers.

Sometimes it has a dual literal and spiritual application (such as Genesis 22, which literally happened to Abraham but also pointed to Christ). If it can't be literal at all (for example, the seven heads and ten horns on the beast), then I take it as symbolic, however, I still see the beast as a physical entity, not some invisible enemy.​

Heads and horns and eyes and all the numbers in Revelation are part of biblical symbolism, and to miss them is to miss the meaning of the passage!

I believe in a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the return of Christ.​

You have not answered my posts with any substantive counter-arguments to justify a futurist reading of Revelation. Just asserting something does not prove something. Where does the book of Revelation add 2000 years? John says "Now", "Near", "Soon", and that he "Shares their tribulation" all in the first chapter! You have not addressed this. I don't see 2000 years added anywhere!

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Eclipsenow said:

You have not answered my posts with any substantive counter-arguments to justify a futurist reading of Revelation. Just asserting something does not prove something. Where does the book of Revelation add 2000 years? John says "Now", "Near", "Soon", and that he "Shares their tribulation" all in the first chapter! You have not addressed this. I don't see 2000 years added anywhere!

Rev 1: 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If you can’t not distinguish between the tribulation all believers may face and great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. What can I say? The tribulation John shared in is not the great tribulation.

Postvieww said:

Eclipsenow said:

You have not answered my posts with any substantive counter-arguments to justify a futurist reading of Revelation. Just asserting something does not prove something. Where does the book of Revelation add 2000 years? John says "Now", "Near", "Soon", and that he "Shares their tribulation" all in the first chapter! You have not addressed this. I don't see 2000 years added anywhere!

Rev 1: 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If you can’t not distinguish between the tribulation all believers may face and great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. What can I say? The tribulation John shared in is not the great tribulation.

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Not according to your timetable anyway.
But I'm interested in what the bible has to say. (In modern English translations, the KJV manuscripts were not as good and the "thous and thees" don't sound quaint any more, they just sound embarrassing).

John sees stuff
Stuff is happening now, in John's frame of reference that he's writing about in chapter 1
Stuff will happen shortly after!
SOON! NOW! NEAR!
He doesn't say "The Great Tribulation" anywhere in Revelation, does he?

As the ESV says: Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus,"
Add a few gospel summaries (like mini-tracts smuggled into the book), and that's pretty much the message of Revelation right there! Christians WILL suffer in these last days (2000 years and counting, see Acts 2), and we WILL be required to be patient in this time of tribulation. But I don't see any distinction. It's a symbolic sermon encouraging John's generation to endure the Roman suffering, and from that we get all manner of sermon material to encourage Christians today.

eclipsenow said:

Woah there. Jesus said "These things" would happen that generation!

Matthew 24
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

....2 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.​

Jesus starts off talking about the temple being destroyed. The disciples asked about that, and then assumed that something so traumatic surely meant the end of the age! So Jesus pauses to talk about not being deceived about his return because it will be universal and inescapable, like lightning from the east to the west.

But what happens next?

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.​

So, "These things" = Rome gathering around, local judgement on Israel and temple, and Jesus wants them to run away!
"That day" = universal judgement, no escape except for believers.

Sometimes it has a dual literal and spiritual application (such as Genesis 22, which literally happened to Abraham but also pointed to Christ). If it can't be literal at all (for example, the seven heads and ten horns on the beast), then I take it as symbolic, however, I still see the beast as a physical entity, not some invisible enemy.​

Heads and horns and eyes and all the numbers in Revelation are part of biblical symbolism, and to miss them is to miss the meaning of the passage!

I believe in a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the return of Christ.​

You have not answered my posts with any substantive counter-arguments to justify a futurist reading of Revelation. Just asserting something does not prove something. Where does the book of Revelation add 2000 years? John says "Now", "Near", "Soon", and that he "Shares their tribulation" all in the first chapter! You have not addressed this. I don't see 2000 years added anywhere!

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I really don't think you are interested and I am not going to re-write my book in forum posts. Since you are convinced most of these things are to be interpreted symbolically, you may not consider my literal interpretations to be compelling.

But anyway, I will say a few things.

Jesus was asked two questions and He didn't distinguish His answers. Jesus refers to the end in verse 6 ("but the end is not yet"). The Jews experienced persecution for their faith and Jerusalem surrounded by armies, but you can't say that the gospel was preached to the whole world in their generation (vs. 14). They may have experienced a type of abomination that causes desolation, but I don't know of one. The Roman armies eventually destroyed the temple, but the Christian Jews were long gone because they fled Jerusalem at first sight of the surrounding. In the past (before Jesus), someone sacrificed a pig in the holy of holies. We can see in hindsight that some of these things applied to first generation, but not all. I think they all have future fulfillment as well, especially because of Jesus' promise that the generation who sees these things will also see their fulfillment (verses 33-34). And obviously Jesus hasn't returned, which according to verse 29 is after the tribulation of those days, the days of tribulation that are so bad that all flesh would die if they weren't shortened (verse 22). The siege on Jerusalem didn't affect all flesh, either--just those living in Jerusalem. It was an awful time for Israel, no doubt, but it didn't affect the whole world.

The supposed past "marks of the beast" you referenced were not required to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17) and refusing it didn't result in beheading (Revelation 20:4).

Like I said before, Luke 18:1-8 and the three successive parables in Matthew 24-25 highlight His lateness in the perspective of men. The Bible predicts widespread apostasy and rejection of sound doctrine before Jesus returns. Jesus suggests few will endure in faith until His return (Luke 18:8). The parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 (five wise and five foolish) suggests half of professed Christians may commit apostasy.

Matthew 13 says that the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest and the tares are gathered for destruction first before the righteous are gathered. Therefore, pre and mid-Tribulation perspectives are false.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 link Jesus' return and the gathering together of the church to Him as one day in the future--after the man of sin and the falling away (apostasy - rejection of the faith by people who formerly claimed it). That again denies pre-Tribulation gathering.

Matthew 24 puts the gathering of the Church (v. 31) after Jesus' return (v. 30).

The resurrection and gathering (of live believers) happen when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17), with the resurrection slightly preceding the gathering. Jesus can't return pre-Tribulation because the first resurrection includes people who are beheaded in the Tribulation for not taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4-6).

Amils see Revelation as symbolic so they don't see a future tribulation with the plagues described in Revelation. Pre- and Mid-Tribulationists believe in a future tribulation according to the plagues, but they construct a theory that they won't be there for all or part of it. All three are woefully unprepared for the idea of living through a literal Tribulation. Post-Tribulationists consider most of Revelation as future. There are some who expect to survive the Tribulation, but I don't and a according to the Bible, few will survive. Because post-tribulationists anticipate these things, they will be less likely to believe false returns of Christ (Matthew 24:23-26) or to deny the faith in face of severe persecution or death (Matthew 24:9-13). They will also be able to encourage themselves by the fact that the Tribulation is a limited time (based on Jesus reference to Daniel, and Daniel 9 as compared with history, it's a 7 year Tribulation), and afterwards, Jesus will return.

eclipsenow said:

Not according to your timetable anyway.
But I'm interested in what the bible has to say. (In modern English translations, the KJV manuscripts were not as good and the "thous and thees" don't sound quaint any more, they just sound embarrassing).

John sees stuff
Stuff is happening now, in John's frame of reference that he's writing about in chapter 1
Stuff will happen shortly after!
SOON! NOW! NEAR!
He doesn't say "The Great Tribulation" anywhere in Revelation, does he?

As the ESV says: Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus,"
Add a few gospel summaries (like mini-tracts smuggled into the book), and that's pretty much the message of Revelation right there! Christians WILL suffer in these last days (2000 years and counting, see Acts 2), and we WILL be required to be patient in this time of tribulation. But I don't see any distinction. It's a symbolic sermon encouraging John's generation to endure the Roman suffering, and from that we get all manner of sermon material to encourage Christians today.

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eclipsenow said:
Not according to your timetable anyway.

But I'm interested in what the bible has to say. (In modern English translations, the KJV manuscripts were not as good and the "thous and thees" don't sound quaint any more, they just sound embarrassing).

Sorry you are embarrassed I believe KJV is one of the better translations available.

John sees stuff

Stuff is happening now, in John's frame of reference that he's writing about in chapter 1

Stuff will happen shortly after!

SOON! NOW! NEAR!

So you define “soon “ in Rev 1:1 to your reckoning of time and what soon means to you. How soon is soon? Based on what? There is no soon in Revelation 1:19. Actually , John wrote of three time periods in Revelation, Things that were in the past of his reality, things that were in his day and things that were yet future to him.

He doesn't say "The Great Tribulation" anywhere in Revelation, does he?

No, but Jesus described in Matthew 24 what John wrote about in Revelation, and He called it great tribulation that’s good enough for me. John did write “great tribulation” Revelation 7:14 I guess he just forgot to use the word “the” like you did. But then Jesus used the word “the “ in Matthew 24:29 He just forgot to use the word “great”, oh well.

As the ESV says: Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus,"

The fact that John was on Patmos was part of his tribulation, that in no way has anything to do with the time of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.

Add a few gospel summaries (like mini-tracts smuggled into the book), and that's pretty much the message of Revelation right there! Christians WILL suffer in these last days (2000 years and counting, see Acts 2), and we WILL be required to be patient in this time of tribulation. But I don't see any distinction.

Here is the distinction:

John 16:33, Acts 14:22,Romans 5:3, Romans 8:35, Romans 12:12, 2 Corinthians 1:4, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9, Revelation 2:10 and several others, are not the same tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:21. That is distinct from the others by Jesus’s words “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be”.



It's a symbolic sermon encouraging John's generation to endure the Roman suffering, and from that we get all manner of sermon material to encourage Christians today.


I have no issue with anyone calling the time from Acts 2 till now the last days. When you say Jesus could have come 1000 years ago with no attempt to back up such a statement, we will just have to agree to disagree on that.


Since you like to refer to Acts 2, let’s look at it .


Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Since you make much of the last days portion of the passage and we are still in it, do you believe our sons and daughters are still prophesying and our young men are still seeing visions, and our old men still dreaming dreams. What about Acts 2:4 is that still happening in these last days? Just curious.

Postvieww said:

There is no soon in Revelation 1:19.

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Actually there is:
Rev 1:19 YLT
Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things

It's the Greek Word "mello" that is used, that the KJV mistranslates as "Shall". In Fact the use of mello indicates that the things that were yet future to John were not things far off, thousands of year away but were "about to come" were indeed on the point, or on the verge, of happening imminently.

Strongs 3195 // mellw // mello // mel'-lo //

a strengthened form of 3199 (through the idea of expectation);

1) to be about
1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something

The fact that John was on Patmos was part of his tribulation, that in no way has anything to do with the time of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.

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A plain reading of the text indicates otherwise:
Rev 1:9
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was a "companion in THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST".

THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST

Not Johns tribulation, not a mini tribulation, not general tribulation but
THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST

Just let than sink in

Let the text form your view, rather than forcing your view onto the text.

Luke17:37 said:

If you really care, I think chapter 2-3 applied to John's generation, but also to the Church through the ages.

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If this is true, I'm curious in what way you believe Revelation 3:3 applied to the 1st century Church at Sardis:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Did Christ Come as a thief upon those 1st century Christians at Sardis who did not watch, as he PROMISED to them in this passage he would?

Luke17:37 said:

Jesus implies in Luke 18:1-8 that many people will stop believing in Him before He comes.
... 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecies a great falling away (apostasy).

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And The Book of Jude testifies of the fulfillment that falling away as it was then presently taking place!

We aren't still waiting for that one.

stephen583 said:

I'm not even sure what you just said. It was so convoluted and verbose, it virtually defies translation.

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Dude, it all came from the Bible

parousia70 said:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

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You can't expect him to take that literally. <Laugh>

Postvieww said:

how long do you think the US can sustain this massive debt load without going into default and total collapse?

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Lessee... Rome, gone. Byzantine Empire, gone. Holy Roman Empire, gone. Ottoman Empire, gone. British Empire, gone. Czarist Russia, gone. Imperial Japan, gone. Imperial China, gone. Soviet Union, gone. US Empire might end some day? Oh, the horror!

How normal is genetic manipulation and the mixing of species?

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Never ridden a mule? Smarter than horses, but their backs are sharp. Products of genetic manipulation, albeit on a very basic level.

2 Peter 3:3

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Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

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Ya know, I've seen that "scoffer" charge leveled against folks who, by and large, confess in every service they attend that our Lord " ascended into Heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead." In the Anglican service, we also declare that 'Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." I've begun to think that chucking that verse at people to whom it in no way applies is little better than a knowing lie. I'll assume that in your case it was done thoughtlessly.

parousia70 said:

And The Book of Jude testifies of the fulfillment that falling away as it was then presently taking place!

We aren't still waiting for that one.

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Suit yourself. The falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 was apparently still future when written, as was the coming of the lawless one. There have always been false prophets and there have always been people deceived, but the Bible prophesies that it will just keep getting worse.

Jipsah said:

2 Peter 3:3-4
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

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Ya know, I've seen that "scoffer" charge leveled against folks who, by and large confess,in every service they attend that our Lord " ascended into Heaven, sits at the Right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead." In the Anglican service, we also declare that 'Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." I've begun to think that chucking that verse at people to whom it in no way applies is little better than a knowing lie. I'll assume that in your case it was done thoughlessly

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Just because people hold to the coming of Christ today doesn't mean they will tomorrow. 2 Peter 3:3-9 should be a warning against rejecting Biblical authority, especially concerning the clear teachings of the beginning.

parousia70 said:

If this is true, I'm curious in what way you believe Revelation 3:3 applied to the 1st century Church at Sardis:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Did Christ Come as a thief upon those 1st century Christians at Sardis who did not watch, as he PROMISED to them in this passage he would?

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They all died and met their Maker, so if they were hypocrites than they would have been ashamed at their meeting. I didn't say everything is Revelation 2-3 was fulfilled. Revelation is mostly unfulfilled, which is exactly what I've been arguing.

parousia70 said:

Actually there is:
Rev 1:19 YLT
Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things

It's the Greek Word "mello" that is used, that the KJV mistranslates as "Shall". In Fact the use of mello indicates that the things that were yet future to John were not things far off, thousands of year away but were "about to come" were indeed on the point, or on the verge, of happening imminently.

Strongs 3195 // mellw // mello // mel'-lo //

a strengthened form of 3199 (through the idea of expectation);

1) to be about
1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something



A plain reading of the text indicates otherwise:
Rev 1:9
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was a "companion in THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST".

THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST

Not Johns tribulation, not a mini tribulation, not general tribulation but
THE TRIBULATION OF JESUS CHRIST

Just let than sink in

Let the text form your view, rather than forcing your view onto the text.

Click to expand...

Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon" in Revelation 22:7 and Revelation 22:12 and "Surely, I am coming soon" in Revelation 22:20. This is in the last page of the Bible, and He hasn't come yet. So obviously, even though about 2000 years have passed, it is still soon to God.

Luke17:37 said:

Suit yourself. The falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 was apparently still future when written, as was the coming of the lawless one.

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Jude was written at least a Decade after 2 Thessalonians was.

Being still Future when Paul Wrote 2 Thessalonians does not necessitate it was still Future When Jude was written.