[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

[Luke17:37]

What if they're all happening now, and all represent different aspects of life in the "Last Days" which actually began 2000 years ago in Acts 2 as Peter says? What if they're biblical symbols indicating things we see in the world today, and giant locusts represent the worst things we fear: terrible droughts or pest-induced famines or potato blights that throw nations into chaos? I think Revelation gives us the comforting message that, just as Jesus said, there will be earthquakes and famines and wars and persecutions and dictators, but that God is in control and in the end, He will return and set things right. But a timetable? No. Not at all. It's a symbolic sermon about how to live in these times, with the good and bad, and not being tempted by the shiny bling that wants us to worship it, or the dictators promising worldly security that cannot really deliver anyway.

I don't believe it's all symbolic. The point of Revelation expressed in the first verse is for Jesus Christ to tell His servants the things which must take place very soon. I don't see how a completely symbolic Revelation could be at all helpful or relevant to the purpose spoken in Revelation 1:1. Everyone would come up with a different symbolic meaning. Jesus presents the Tribulation in Matthew 24 as a literal very difficult time where most people die but God keeps a remnant alive.

 

[eclipsenow]

The fact that it was all to start soon indicates to me that John was talking about Roman persecution. From this, we learn how to think about all persecution through all world history. Buy a book by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Paul-Barnett/9781875861415

 

[Luke17:37]

The fact that it was all to start soon indicates to me that John was talking about Roman persecution. From this, we learn how to think about all persecution through all world history. Buy a book by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Paul-Barnett/9781875861415

Jesus' words in Revelation 22 are, "Surely, I am coming quickly." He hasn't come yet, but His view of quick is different than ours. The opening of the scroll leads up to His coming in Revelation 19. His words to the churches (Revelation 2-3) are in light of His coming. The whole book is really about His second coming, which is future.

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to HIS generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would apply to all generations.

1. THE LANGUAGE IS ‘SOON’ AND ‘NEAR’ NOT 2000 YEARS AWAY!

Rev 1:1 “… SOON take place."

1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR!

Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message! How do you obey a message all about people on Mars in the year 4000AD? You don’t. You can’t. That’s how alien today’s modern world would be to John’s audience. He expected them to *obey* this message. Futurists just wipe this under the carpet, but it’s all here in Chapter 1: the guide for how to read this entire book!

2. JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE *ALREADY* SHARES IN THEIR *TRIBULATION*

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

John shares their tribulation which had *already* started! It started 2000 years ago, and continues to this day. We see it in history and around the world *any* time a 'beast' government starts to kill God's people.

John wrote in the apocalyptic genre, a style heavy with symbolism which was common from 200BC to 200AD, and he neatly incorporates a number of Jewish numbers and symbols into a well rounded sermon all about Christians living under persecution. Jewish Christians probably still expected the Messiah to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans. What was the point of belonging to this 'new' Israel if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is primarily a theological sermon that covered where the true temple now lives, true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about how eternal life intersects with worldly philosophies and temptations. It’s about remaining true to our calling under various temptations.

Note that it was written *to* them and was, generally speaking, *about* them and their trials and tribulations: but in doing so it is to *all* Christians in *all* times of trial and tribulation and temptation. Just as 1 Corinthians was written specifically to the Corinthian church but is also God's word to all generations, so Revelation was written to specific Christians but the themes and message are timeless. (Well, for all Christians living in these Last Days which started in Acts 2!)

3. IT'S A GOSPEL SERMON THAT APPLIES TO ALL AGES, EVEN IF WRITTEN IN APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE!

1:2
"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The testimony of Jesus Christ is another way of speaking of the basic gospel message of the Apostles.
Jesus is introduced in a similar style to the Son of Man before the Ancient of Days in Daniel. But then there's a New Testament twist. John mixes and matches his imagery to suit the theology of his sermon. "...and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword." The Sword is the Sword of the Spirit, the word of God. Jesus, the WORD, is about to speak to John!

John has specifically said this book is about the testimony of Jesus Christ and now adds a biblical symbol of the power of that testimony. The Sword of the Spirit is about to speak, so pay attention! Listen up! The Lord is speaking, and (as John has already said) it is a testimony about himself. That's the gospel. Hear and obey! "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Which is kind of hard to do if it is not even directed TO you or ABOUT you. But because this was the gospel being preached, it *IS* to us and about us, and all Christians until the Lord returns.

THE SCROLL IN REVELATION 5 IS ABOUT THE GOSPEL AS WELL!
John weeps that no one can open Daniel's scroll, as it contains the answer to the great mystery of how God was going to redeem his people. But Jesus can open it. Why? Because he "has overcome". And...

"“ Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Jesus is the POINT of the whole bible, the subject of the scroll, and the answer to Daniel's question. Jesus is the one who saves people from every nation and creates a brand new kingdom and priests. The GOSPEL is the mystery from ages past now revealed to the Apostles. The scroll of Revelation 5 is not another question to solve but an answer to Daniel's conundrum! It's the gospel.


4. THE GOSPEL ITSELF HAS US THINKING OF THE LORD'S RETURN IN SALVATION AND JUDGEMENT
Critics of Amillennialism often argue that because the last few chapters describe Judgement Day the whole book must be a timetable. The problem is, the description of Judgement Day itself isn't a timetable! Judgement Day is described and repeated 3 times in various chapters at the end of the book. Rather than seeing Revelation as our own personal crystal ball and trying to guess specifically who and what each symbol 'is', we are meant to remember the *theological* importance of each image. And, surprise surprise, here we see the Lord's return is integral to the gospel sermon John is preaching in the first place!

Rev 1:5
"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen."

In verse 5 Jesus freed us from our sins. But thoughts of Jesus suffering lead John straight to His glorious return.

He is coming back the way he went, on the clouds. This is the ancient symbol of the Cloud Rider; a victorious and mighty ruler like the Ancient of Days. The return of the Cloud Rider is the Return of the King. It means Judgement Day.

According to John, the moment we remember Jesus died for our blood should also be the moment we remember his comforting words that although he suffered (and us with him!), he WILL return. Like any good introduction, John is letting us know what this book will be all about. We see generic picture language that explains the gospel hope of Jesus return to suffering Christians. We will NOT give in to persecution and temptation. We will NOT betray God and live for worldly wealth, worldly philosophy, and worldly powers. Because, in the end, the Lord *will* Judges them all. This is our gospel hope. It's not some weak future timetable that robs the book of relevance and meaning to us.

5. THERE IS NO WAY TO INSERT 2000 YEARS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE TEXT!
Revelation 4 is often quoted to support a big leap of time into the future.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven... Immediately I was in the Spirit".
Let us note that it does NOT say "Insert 2000 years here please, and then we'll move on to our timeline of future history!" That will not do. It contradicts John's command for *his* readers to hear and understand and obey the *gospel* message he is preaching, and it robs the verses above of their true meaning.

But John *does* give us a timeframe for his book. It is going to cover the Last Days. In Rev 1 he has already said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which means he is thinking of the Age of the Spirit which finds its fulfilment on the great and terrible day of the Lord. Here it is again in Rev 4. "Immediately I was in the Spirit". "After these things" is moving on from the specifics of the letters to the 7 churches to general truths across the whole Last Days. A careful study of Acts 2 and Joel will also back this up. We are in the Last Days, and have been for 2000 years. Most of the images in Revelation are theological statements about suffering in the Last Days, not 'events' that must be decoded.

6. THE FACT OF JUDGEMENT DAY IN THE LAST CHAPTERS *STILL* DOES NOT MAKE THIS A TIMETABLE!
Some argue that Judgement Day is an event, therefore the whole book is a series of events, not symbolic sermons. But there's a problem. Judgement Day is described about 3 times in vivid imagery from different angles. Revelation 17, 19, and 20 all describe different aspects of the same Judgement of our Lord! This makes it even *harder* to see Revelation as a future timeline when it seems to waltz around the same things again and again! No, it's symbolically describing important theological truths about Judgement Day. This is not arbitrary timetables. Indeed, ‘timetables’ for ‘figuring out’ when all these things are going to happen runs contrary to all Jesus many warnings that we will NOT know when he will return: it will be like a thief in the night.

John started off telling us in Chapter 1 that he was writing about the gospel, and the gospel leads to Judgement. We should not be surprised that the book deals with the harsh realities of our lives now, but culminates in our glorious hope! How many stories have you heard describe heartache and pain that is ultimately resolved and rewarded? John is the ultimate storyteller, only the story he's telling is the gospel itself.

7. A FUTURE TIMETABLE MAKES IT COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE TO JOHN'S GENERATION.

* Covenant Amils see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the special last generation.

* Covenant Amils use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* Futurists use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing futurists have said addresses the fundamental point that their literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied.


Commentaries I recommend:
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.

Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
http://www.bookdepository.com/Revelation-Unwrapped-John-Richardson/9780952489429

Another great commentary that is also symbolist but also has a slightly more Historical emphasis is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Paul-Barnett/9781875861415

 

[Postvieww]

I haven’t read this entire thread but I have read enough to have an overview of some of the sentiment here. I’m just curious about a few things. To those that think we are just chugging along and all is well and very normal: How normal is the potential destruction and severe damage already to the Ocean caused by Fukushima, how normal is the collapse of economies around the world, how long do you think the US can sustain this massive debt load without going into default and total collapse? How normal is genetic manipulation and the mixing of species? How normal is the earth quake frequency? Yes there have always been earthquakes, just check the stats and see how abnormal it is right now. How normal is blatant in your face witchcraft that was just a few short years ago at least in the closet. Speaking of the closet how about the open and widely accepted gay life style and the declarations that either God is not enraged or that there is no God. How about the sacrificing of unborn babies routinely how normal is that?

Yes there have been those who have set dates ignorantly and failed but that does not change where we are in history. We have been given Gods word on what to look for, and for those who do not see it my prayer is God will remove the blinders.

Matthew 16:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 

[tucker58]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...moon-and-meteor-strike-prophecy-10491339.html

I guess I'm actually rather amazed at how many people seem to have an undo fascination with the "end of times". Every generation thinks that they live in the end times, and they're sure that all the signs clearly demonstrate that they are living in the end times, but the world just keeps right on plugging and chugging. The Bible tells us that nobody can actually predict the time or date in the first place, so what exactly *is* the big psychological fascination with various 'end of the world' claims and false prophesies anyway? Why isn't it always seen as another 'cry wolf' claim?

I kinda hoped that after all the "end of the Mayan calendar" hype was done and behind us, and the dust of disappointment had finally settled over the new age masses, that things would slow down for awhile. Quite the opposite seems to be occurring. It seems like every other month another end of the world "prediction" comes along, just as a previous one bites the dust like all the rest. It's like a revolving door of never ending "end of the world" fixations.

Michael, you present something interesting that I have never actually thought about . I have noticed on TV that there are a lot of new apocaliptic type series and movies and they seem to be getting high viewer numbers. And you are right about new end of the world predictions coming along as previous ones bite the dust. I grew up durring the cold war with the nuclear threat hanging over our heads with a constant fear of the future. And now one fear has turned into multitude of some serious concerns ! As a Christian I consider Satan real and at play in our world both past and present and his power is the lie and the fear which seems to be running ramped in today's world. But what is funny though is that if one is a Christian this brings one closer to our Lord and Savior and to our Father in Heaven. With all of this doom and gloom the only place that one can really go for "hope" is to our Lord and Savior and His Father. "...undo fascination with the "end of times"." "So what is the big psychological fascination?" Personally I think that there is someting wrong with those folks but at the sametime they create a psychological environment that can bring us closer to our Lord and Savior and His Father than we would normally go if everything was alright and the future in this physical world was safely secure.

 

[Luke17:37]

Michael, you present something interesting that I have never actually thought about . I have noticed on TV that there are a lot of new apocaliptic type series and movies and they seem to be getting high viewer numbers. And you are right about new end of the world predictions coming along as previous ones bite the dust. I grew up durring the cold war with the nuclear threat hanging over our heads with a constant fear of the future. And now one fear has turned into multitude of some serious concerns ! As a Christian I consider Satan real and at play in our world both past and present and his power is the lie and the fear which seems to be running ramped in today's world. But what is funny though is that if one is a Christian this brings one closer to our Lord and Savior and to our Father in Heaven. With all of this doom and gloom the only place that one can really go for "hope" is to our Lord and Savior and His Father. "...undo fascination with the "end of times"." "So what is the big psychological fascination?" Personally I think that there is someting wrong with those folks but at the sametime they create a psychological environment that can bring us closer to our Lord and Savior and His Father than we would normally go if everything was alright and the future in this physical world was safely secure.

Jesus commanded us not to be afraid and to keep our trust in Him, even if we are persecuted or we are suffering from other disasters. Being aware of what will happen in the Tribulation is a good thing, because Jesus warned profusely that many people will be deceived and many will fall away from the faith. We want to be people who overcome, should our generation be the one to see the days.

It doesn't mean we need to look at every news announcement thinking that the Tribulation might be upon us, or that we should cash in our retirement and build a bunker. Jesus preached against self-preservation of our lives when our faith comes down to life or death. Our focus should be on fulfilling the Great Comission (Matthew 28:18-20) and being purified in the likeness of Jesus.

 

[eclipsenow]

How normal is the potential destruction and severe damage already to the Ocean caused by Fukushima

As the ocean contains contain enough uranium to run the world for a billion years, and as water halves radiation every 15cm so that a lethal dose is hardly trouble within a few metres, and as the Fukushima zone could mostly be resettled, as our bodies themselves are radioactive enough that married couples give each other an x-ray worth of radiation each year as they sleep next to each other, it's not an issue.

how normal is the collapse of economies around the world

We are richer than we've ever been in the privileged west. But the starvation we do see? That's described in Revelation. That's been a part of the world for 2000 years. What's new?

how long do you think the US can sustain this massive debt load without going into default and total collapse?

If they stopped importing oil at $600 billion a year, and legislated that all cars should be electric (as the Netherlands are doing by 2025!), then you'd reclaim $6 trillion a decade! A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money!

How normal is genetic manipulation and the mixing of species?

If we get it right, gene splicing could help feed the world.

How normal is the earth quake frequency?

Normal. Jesus discussed it happening 2000 years ago, and the Last Days started at Pentecost. (Acts2)

How normal is blatant in your face witchcraft that was just a few short years ago at least in the closet. Speaking of the closet how about the open and widely accepted gay life style and the declarations that either God is not enraged or that there is no God. How about the sacrificing of unborn babies routinely how normal is that?

Meh. No different to Corinth. No different to the general description of people being 'lovers of themselves' and all that in Peter. Death and sin and Satan still reign, even as Jesus reigns from heaven and his kingdom expands and reigns in his church.

Yes there have been those who have set dates ignorantly and failed but that does not change where we are in history.

Of course. We're the SPECIAL ones! As I said under point 7 above....

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the special last generation.

Revelation: the best book in the bible for self-indulgent navel gazing and speculation about today's headlines. Speculate while it lasts! And lasts... and lasts.

Seriously, the Lord could return in 5 seconds, in 500 years, or in 50,000 years. Or He could have returned 1000 years ago! There's nothing left to be done. He fulfilled everything on the cross. It's all ready. The game is won. We're in overtime, just playing for extra points for our team.

 

[tucker58]

Jesus commanded us not to be afraid and to keep our trust in Him, even if we are persecuted or we are suffering from other disasters. Being aware of what will happen in the Tribulation is a good thing, because Jesus warned profusely that many people will be deceived and many will fall away from the faith. We want to be people who overcome, should our generation be the one to see the days.

It doesn't mean we need to look at every news announcement thinking that the Tribulation might be upon us, or that we should cash in our retirement and build a bunker. Jesus preached against self-preservation of our lives when our faith comes down to life or death. Our focus should be on fulfilling the Great Comission (Matthew 28:18-20) and being purified in the likeness of Jesus.

Luke17:37, I like what you have said in that post . And especially this part: "Our focus should be on fufilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) and being purified in the likeness of Jesus."

 

[Luke17:37]

Luke17:37, I like what you have said in that post . And especially this part: "Our focus should be on fufilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) and being purified in the likeness of Jesus."

Thanks. Besides these things (for every Christian), I believe I have a life calling to engage the Church in the Scriptures concerning the beginning and the end, in hopes that some will not be deceived and destroyed for lack of knowledge.

 

[eclipsenow]

Luke17:37, I like what you have said in that post . And especially this part: "Our focus should be on fufilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) and being purified in the likeness of Jesus."

When is the tribulation? Isn't this whole period of the "last days" (Acts 2 and counting) the tribulation? For evidence, see Rev 1 where John says he's sharing in their tribulation!

 

[eclipsenow]

Thanks. Besides these things (for every Christian), I believe I have a life calling to engage the Church in the Scriptures concerning the beginning and the end, in hopes that some will not be deceived and destroyed for lack of knowledge.

As if our loving Lord, who saves sinners like me, would let anyone's faith be destroyed due to their not understanding some super-complicated end-times-table that no one here can even agree on! As an Amil I just shake my head in amazement at all the different pre-post-mid trib arguments here and variations on a last days timetable theme. I'll post these points again, because I don't think people are engaging with them!

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the speciallast generation.

 

[Luke17:37]

When is the tribulation? Isn't this whole period of the "last days" (Acts 2 and counting) the tribulation? For evidence, see Rev 1 where John says he's sharing in their tribulation!

Yes we all have tribulation but there are the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus said are so bad such that if He didn't shorten the days, no one would survive (Matthew 24:22). These are also described in Revelation in more detail. In the days of the Tribulation, Christians will be beheaded because they won't take the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4-6). (Anyone who does take the mark earns eternal wrath.)

 

[parousia70]

Jesus' words in Revelation 22 are, "Surely, I am coming quickly." He hasn't come yet, but His view of quick is different than ours.

1) Wait...Jesus doesn't understand what "quickly" is from our perspective?

B) If quickly can mean any length of time, then it really has no meaning at all does it?

3.14) In Revelation 22 is Jesus actually communicating TO humans?
Or is He just bloviating words that only He understands for His own gratification?

 

[Steve Petersen]

.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes we all have tribulation but there are the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus said are so bad such that if He didn't shorten the days, no one would survive (Matthew 24:22).

Be careful what the subject is. Those temple passages in Matthew are tricky, because at one point he's talking about "these things" in front of the disciples, the temple and the end of the temple in AD70, and at another point he's talking about "that day" when He will return. Be careful to look for the switch in pronouns.

These are also described in Revelation in more detail. In the days of the Tribulation, Christians will be beheaded because they won't take the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4-6). (Anyone who does take the mark earns eternal wrath.)

The mark was about worshipping Titus in games where Christians were slaughtered by the Proconsul in honour of the Emperor, and applies today to anyone living in North Korea or other dictators.

 

[Luke17:37]

1) Wait...Jesus doesn't understand what "quickly" is from our perspective?

B) If quickly can mean any length of time, then it really has no meaning at all does it?

3.14) In Revelation 22 is Jesus actually communicating TO humans?
Or is He just bloviating words that only He understands for His own gratification?

Jesus implies in Luke 18:1-8 that many people will stop believing in Him before He comes.

Luke 18:7–8 (NKJV)
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

The three consecutive parables in Matthew 24 and 25 highlight His perceived lateness. 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecies a great falling away (apostasy). 2 Peter 3:3-9 says scoffers will reject Jesus' literal, bodily coming. The reason cited for why He takes longer than men expect:

2 Peter 3:8–9 (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Luke17:37]

As if our loving Lord, who saves sinners like me, would let anyone's faith be destroyed due to their not understanding some super-complicated end-times-table that no one here can even agree on! As an Amil I just shake my head in amazement at all the different pre-post-mid trib arguments here and variations on a last days timetable theme. I'll post these points again, because I don't think people are engaging with them!

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations. It's immensely practical, encouraging stuff.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation. It's confined to the last generation, and ... every generation argues over how it applies, as of course they think they're the speciallast generation.

Hey eclipsenow. I'm sorry you felt ignored. I just don't believe in your amil theory.

I don't think it's really that complicated, but I think the end time prophecies are similar to a parable in that God expects us to seek Him and it's hidden from the foolish but made manifest to the wise. God will allow many people to be deceived because they don't love righteousness and truth (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

Matthew 13:13–15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

I was only 16 or 17 when the Lord opened my eyes on end times because I sought understanding earnestly and I looked for it in the word of God. It changed my mind. It's not because I was so smart, but because God rewards those who diligently seek Him.

The Bible prophesies much false teaching and deception (Matthew 24, 2 Peter 2) and widespread rejection of sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). So the issue is not whether the professed church agrees on something, but whether it is what Scripture teaches.

Revelation is practical to the generations before the last because everyone faces tribulation as a Christian (John 16:33). And I'm sure the messages to the churches (Revelation 2-3) in particular were very practical to those churches.

I just can't see the Tribulation as symbolic when Jesus referred to it as literal.

Matthew 24:21–22 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

There are some symbolic parts, sure, but the symbolism is often explained and standing for something literal.

However, I believe the plagues (Revelation 6, 8, 9, 11:15-19, 16), the return of Christ (Revelation 19), the thousand year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:11-15), the judgment (Revelation 20), the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21) (and more) are all literal.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hey eclipsenow.

Hi
I'm sorry you felt ignored. I just don't believe in your amil theory. I don't think it's really that complicated, but I think the end time prophecies are similar to a parable in that God expects us to seek Him and it's hidden from the foolish but made manifest to the wise. God will allow many people to be deceived because they don't love righteousness and truth (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

OK, so on this rationale I'm foolish and don't love righteousness and truth.
It's not that we disagree over interpretation! Instead, rather than prove that I'm wrong from scripture, you prefer to psychoanalyse and spiritualise why I'm wrong! But that's illogical, lazy, and places scriptural understanding in the realm of the subjective 'gut feeling' and I reject it with everything I have as a completely un-biblical mumbo-jumbo.

Matthew 13:13–15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’​

Great. You know you're saying I'm not even a Christian by quoting that verse at me?

The Bible prophesies much false teaching and deception (Matthew 24, 2 Peter 2) and widespread rejection of sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). So the issue is not whether the professed church agrees on something, but whether it is what Scripture teaches.​

Woah!? Which is it? Understand the bible, or understand your gut feeling about the bible? You can't have it both ways.

Revelation is practical to the generations before the last because everyone faces tribulation as a Christian (John 16:33). And I'm sure the messages to the churches (Revelation 2-3) in particular were very practical to those churches.​

And in the war on Mars in 4000AD, the Greens will fight the Reds unto the death!
Now go ahead and be encouraged by that! It's so far away from your experience and has so little do do with you that it's meaningless! Sure, claim a few chapters of the book are about John's generation: except he said it was ALL going to start in his generation in the gradually unfolding judgement of God against sin and sinners and rebellious anti-Christian governments.

I just can't see the Tribulation as symbolic when Jesus referred to it as literal.

Either can I see John being symbolic when he meant it literally: HE shared in their tribulation that was already starting!

Matthew 24:21–22 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Isn't that talking about the pain on his beloved Jerusalem? Isn't that answering his disciples questions about the end of the temple?

There are some symbolic parts, sure, but the symbolism is often explained and standing for something literal.​

The whole book is symbolic, and discusses things that are very real such as famines and earthquakes and dictatorships and persecution.

However, I believe the plagues (Revelation 6, 8, 9, 11:15-19, 16), the return of Christ (Revelation 19), the thousand year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:11-15), the judgment (Revelation 20), the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21) (and more) are all literal.

Why? I see them as clearly symbolic, and actually contradicting other parts of the bible if they're literal!

 

[Luke17:37]

I'm sorry you felt ignored. I just don't believe in your amil theory. I don't think it's really that complicated, but I think the end time prophecies are similar to a parable in that God expects us to seek Him and it's hidden from the foolish but made manifest to the wise. God will allow many people to be deceived because they don't love righteousness and truth (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

OK, so on this rationale I'm foolish and don't love righteousness and truth.

I didn't say that you were foolish and that you don't love righteousness and truth! I hope you aren't! I wasn't applying it to you. I just said I believe prophecy is like a parable and that God is going to allow some people to be deceived and that is why things aren't obvious enough to be understood by everyone.

It's not that we disagree over interpretation! Instead, rather than prove that I'm wrong from scripture, you prefer to psychoanalyse and spiritualise why I'm wrong! But that's illogical, lazy, and places scriptural understanding in the realm of
the subjective 'gut feeling' and I reject it with everything I have as a completely un-biblical mumbo-jumbo.

I'm not psychoanalyzing and spiritualizing anything. You are blowing this way out of proportion. I didn't tell you it was about you.

Matthew 13:13–15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’​

Great. You know you're saying I'm not even a Christian by quoting that verse at me?

No, I am not saying that about you at all. I'm just saying I think that's why end times prophecy has so many interpretations, because it needs to be spiritually revealed. God is not making it so obvious such that everyone who casually reads the Scripture will understand--only those who seek. Please understand I was not attacking you.

The Bible prophesies much false teaching and deception (Matthew 24, 2 Peter 2) and widespread rejection of sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). So the issue is not whether the professed church agrees on something, but whether it is what Scripture teaches.​

Woah!? Which is it? Understand the bible, or understand your gut feeling about the bible? You can't have it both ways.

I don't understand what your conundrum is. Understand/believe the Bible, period. Many will teach deception, but if you know the truth, you won't be deceived.

​

Revelation is practical to the generations before the last because everyone faces tribulation as a Christian (John 16:33). And I'm sure the messages to the churches (Revelation 2-3) in particular were very practical to those churches.​

And in the war on Mars in 4000AD, the Greens will fight the Reds unto the death!
Now go ahead and be encouraged by that! It's so far away from your experience and has so little do do with you that it's meaningless! Sure, claim a few chapters of the book are about John's generation: except he said it was ALL going to start in his generation in the gradually unfolding judgement of God against sin and sinners and rebellious anti-Christian governments.

If you really care, I think chapter 2-3 applied to John's generation, but also to the Church through the ages. I don't understand why you are so upset.

Either can I see John being symbolic when he meant it literally: HE shared in their tribulation that was already starting!

Matthew 24:21–22 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Isn't that talking about the pain on his beloved Jerusalem? Isn't that answering his disciples questions about the end of the temple?

When I look at this Scripture in context, I believe Jesus is talking about the time just before His appearing (Matthew 24:29-30). And the signs and fulfillment will come upon one generation. Since Jesus didn't return to the generation who saw the destruction of Jerusalem, there has to be a future fulfillment.

Matthew 24:33–34 (NKJV)
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

There are some symbolic parts, sure, but the symbolism is often explained and standing for something literal.​

The whole book is symbolic, and discusses things that are very real such as famines and earthquakes and dictatorships and persecution.

Why? I see them as clearly symbolic, and actually contradicting other parts of the bible if they're literal!

Oh, well. We disagree. Revelation 1:1 says that it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show His servants what will soon take place. This sounds like practical, literal instruction, not symbolic. I believe these are real plagues and that Jesus told us about them so we would be prepared to endure, not just tribulation in general, but during this actual time of tribulation. I believe the mark of the beast is a real thing that will be required for buying and selling and people who take it will face God's eternal wrath. It's practical to know that Christians can't, and that they must be willing to die, even be beheaded, in order to maintain their obedience to Jesus in this crucial matter.