Motivation for the Trinity

[nhoj]

If the Trinity belief is incorrect, then what was the reason for inventing it?

What reasons are behind the creation of a concept that is so different to the God of the Jews?

Was it a single change that evolved into the Trinity or does the Trinity mimic an existing concept?

Oh and I did say "If the Trinity belief is incorrect". I'm not claiming that it is incorrect. I just find it an annoying belief to defend.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No one argues that there aren't three great spiritual 'principles'; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the personhood, or personality, of the Holy Spirit, and it's equality with Father and Son that is the point of disagreement, and the 'worshipful' attitude towards it.

 

[CherubRam]

If the Trinity belief is incorrect, then what was the reason for inventing it?

What reasons are behind the creation of a concept that is so different to the God of the Jews?

Was it a single change that evolved into the Trinity or does the Trinity mimic an existing concept?

Oh and I did say "If the Trinity belief is incorrect". I'm not claiming that it is incorrect. I just find it an annoying belief to defend.

The Pagans had a Sunday Sabbath and many of their gods were part of a trinity. It is likely that there were those who wanted join those concepts to Judaism.

 

[timewerx]

The motivation for the Trinity is to end World War 2 with the first use of atom bombs in combat....

Jokes aside, if I am going to be objective, then there is only the Spirit.

Outside of Christianity, I have not come to the awareness of the Father, nor the Son. Although the moral logic the Spirit taught me matches that of the Son.


If the Trinity is true then there can only be one and the other two are avatars of the one. Jesus is probably an avatar of a much larger being. Who knows, we could all be avatars trapped in this hell hole of a planet, an essence of something far bigger held captive by a malevolent entity (1 John 5:19). Wake up anyone??

 

[CherubRam]

Here is a good question for everyone: Who or what did the Orthodox Jews think the Holy Spirit was? Now know this, Orthodox Jews do not believe in a trinity, nor do they believe that there is more than one who is truly a God.

 

[Der Alte]

The Pagans had a Sunday Sabbath and many of their gods were part of a trinity. It is likely that there were those who wanted join those concepts to Judaism.

Nonsense! There was no pagan society or culture which could have influenced the early church that had a trinity or even a clearly defined triad of deities. I have been asking for evidence right here for more than a decade and I have not seen the first piece of credible, verifiable, historical evidence yet and by that I don't mean the usual cut/paste from antitrinitarians-я-us.com. And there was no society which had a Sunday sabbath.

 

[hedrick]

Historically the Trinity developed in the course of discussing the relationship between Jesus and the Father. There are several passages in the NT that see Christ as “preexistent,” i.e. as in some sense existing from before creation. How do we deal with these?

There seem to be three major options:

* see the preexistent entity as separate from God.

* see the preexistent entity as in some sense part of God

* see the passages on preexistent as non-literal, or at least not describing a fully distinct entity.

The first give you Arianism. The second gives you the orthodox tradition. The third gives you modern theology, sort of.

It’s pretty easy to see why the Christian tradition picked the second alternative. The first challenges monotheism, and also defeats what most of the early Church saw as the whole purpose of the Incarnation. The third was simply outside the mindset of a tradition that wanted to explain everything in terms of (modified) Greek metaphysics. (You can see this in how the Church treated Theodore. He was the closest to modern theology as I know of during the period when the Trinity was being developed. While part of it was some truly nasty politics, it's pretty clear that few in the mainstream Church really understood what he was trying to do.)

Once you’re committed to seeing the preexistent Son as part of God, something like the Trinity is inevitable. Jesus speaks of the Father as a separate entity, so something like the idea of separate hypostases would have to develop. It’s natural to include the Holy Spirit as a third Person, since there was already a tradition of three-fold language, and the Holy Spirit is also clearly God but referred to at times as separate, e.g. when the Father sends the Holy Spirit.

 

[CherubRam]

Nonsense! There was no pagan society or culture which could have influenced the early church that had a trinity or even a clearly defined triad of deities. I have been asking for evidence right here for more than a decade and I have not seen the first piece of credible, verifiable, historical evidence yet and by that I don't mean the usual cut/paste from antitrinitarians-я-us.com. And there was no society which had a Sunday sabbath.

The Sun was venerated on Sunday by the Pagans. Sun worship was "one of the oldest components of the Roman religion. After the conquest of Egypt in 31 B.C. Augustus sent two obelisks to Rome and had them dedicated to the Sun. Tertullian reports that in his time "the huge Obelisk" in the circus was still "set up in public for the Sun," and that the circus "was chiefly consecrated to the Sun." And then there was Constantine the Great in his two constitutions of March 3 and July 3 A.D. 321, by describing the day of the Sun as "venerable—venerabilis" and "veneratione sui celeb rem." And the list of facts goes on and on.

Source: From Sabbath to Sunday

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Prior to ~110 AD no one really mentioned a Trinity. Ignatius wrote "...Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit." That is about the earliest mentioning of a Trinity in Christianity.

Older cultures also had a trinity in their system. These include Sumeria, Babylon, India, Egypt and Greece. It is not far fetched to think that Judaism and Christianity borrowed from other cultures.

 

[Der Alte]

The Sun was venerated on Sunday by the Pagans. Sun worship was "one of the oldest components of the Roman religion. After the conquest of Egypt in 31 B.C. Augustus sent two obelisks to Rome and had them dedicated to the Sun. Tertullian reports that in his time "the huge Obelisk" in the circus was still "set up in public for the Sun," and that the circus "was chiefly consecrated to the Sun." And then there was Constantine the Great in his two constitutions of March 3 and July 3 A.D. 321, by describing the day of the Sun as "venerable—venerabilis" and "veneratione sui celeb rem." And the list of facts goes on and on.

Source: From Sabbath to Sunday

I copied this from the same link. Your so-called source is self contradictory.

He maintains however that "since the earliest evidence for the existence of the planetary week [i.e. our present week, named after seven planets] is to be dated toward the end of the first century A.D.," at a time when "the Christians observance of Sunday was a practice of long standing," any influence of Sun-worship on the origin of Sunday is to be categorically excluded.4

4. W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 37; note Rordorf’s categorical statement: "If the question is raised whether the origins of the Christian observance of Sunday are in any way connected with the Sunday observance of the Mithras cult, it must be answered with a definite No" (loc. cit.).

Conclusion. ...
Various Sun-cults were predominant in ancient Rome by the early part of the second century. That these attracted the imagination and interest of Christian converts from paganism, we found evidenced by the development of the theme of Christ-the-Sun, and by the adoption of the eastward orientation for prayer and of the date of the 25th of December. The existence of a rich Biblical tradition which associated the deity with the Sun and Light seemingly facilitated, if it did not encourage such an amalgamation of ideas.​

 

[Der Alte]

Prior to ~110 AD no one really mentioned a Trinity. Ignatius wrote "...Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit." That is about the earliest mentioning of a Trinity in Christianity.

Older cultures also had a trinity in their system. These include Sumeria, Babylon, India, Egypt and Greece. It is not far fetched to think that Judaism and Christianity borrowed from other cultures.

Please provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence of those so-called pre-Christian Trinities? Here are some Trinitarian passages from the Bible.

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[hedrick]

Here's a pretty good history of development: Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). As you can see, we know pretty well how the Trinity developed. The doctrine as we think of it now really originated in the controversy with the Arians. We can see each step, with the motivations and Scriptural exegesis. I don't think any pagan similarities affected it. In my view, if it's wrong, it's wrong not because it's pagan, but because it's trying to use concepts originating in Greek philosophy, that don't match how the NT writers were thinking. But that's going to be a matter of judgement: They were trying to make Christ intelligible to their own culture, and naturally used concepts of that culture.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Please provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence of those so-called pre-Christian Trinities? Here are some Trinitarian passages from the Bible.

Likewise.

Can you provide any sources outside of the Bible that shows that your claims are historically accurate?

 

[Der Alte]

Here's a pretty good history of development: Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). As you can see, we know pretty well how the Trinity developed. The doctrine as we think of it now really originated in the controversy with the Arians. We can see each step, with the motivations and Scriptural exegesis. I don't think any pagan similarities affected it. In my view, if it's wrong, it's wrong not because it's pagan, but because it's trying to use concepts originating in Greek philosophy, that don't match how the NT writers were thinking. But that's going to be a matter of judgement: They were trying to make Christ intelligible to their own culture, and naturally used concepts of that culture.

The Trinity doctrine did not orginate with the Arian controversy. The Trinity was being written about by the early church fathers more than 100 years before Nicaea. Would you tell us what are those "concepts originating in Greek philosophy" which influenced the early church? And please cite credible, verifiable, historical evidence not anonymous internet blogs.

 

[Der Alte]

Likewise.

Can you provide any sources outside of the Bible that shows that your claims are historically accurate?

This request doesn't make any sense to me. Are you seriously asking me for outside sources which prove that the 86 passages I quoted and referenced from the Bible are historically accurate?

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Yes...otherwise it is 100% blind faith that what was written is absolute and factual. In the legal field we call that hearsay...which is inadmissible.

I have already stated that I do not believe the Bible to be 100% literal. Come up with some outside sources to back up your claims and I will listen.

Surely if the NT is literal then the Romans documented the events as well...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes...otherwise it is 100% blind faith that what was written is absolute and factual. In the legal field we call that hearsay...which is inadmissible.

This ain't the legal profession.

I have already stated that I do not believe the Bible to be 100% literal. Come up with some outside sources to back up your claims and I will listen.

Surely if the NT is literal then the Romans documented the events as well...

Why would the Romans write anything about Christian faith and beliefs? I don't think I have made any claims involving "blind faith" in this thread. Now back to my question which is on topic, credible, historical, evidence that pagan societies had a trinity which could have influenced early Christianity.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

This ain't the legal profession.



Why would the Romans write anything about Christian faith and beliefs? I don't think I have made any claims involving "blind faith" in this thread. Now back to my question which is on topic, credible, historical, evidence that pagan societies had a trinity which could have influenced early Christianity.

The Bible has to be taken on blind faith. Abrahamic religions are all revealed religions. A prophet, who was always alone, makes claims about divine revelation and religion is centered on his claim. You can only hope he was telling the truth.

Incidentally non-Christian sources attest to Jesus being real, document His sorceries (miracles), and have Him crucified by Pilate.

My question to you was a rhetotical one. No you can't provide the proof...yet you demand it of others.

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible has to be taken on blind faith. Abrahamic religions are all revealed religions. A prophet, who was always alone, makes claims about divine revelation and religion is centered on his claim. You can only hope he was telling the truth.

Incidentally non-Christian sources attest to Jesus being real, document His sorceries (miracles), and have Him crucified by Pilate.

My question to you was a rhetotical one. No you can't provide the proof...yet you demand it of others.

Once again I have not made any claims or statements, in this thread, that would require extraBiblical evidence that the Bible is true. If I do make such claims please feel free to request evidence. I challenged an unsupported historical claim you made in post #9.

. . . Older cultures also had a trinity in their system. These include Sumeria, Babylon, India, Egypt and Greece. It is not far fetched to think that Judaism and Christianity borrowed from other cultures.

It is proper to request evidence supporting this alleged historical claim. My response quoted and referred to 86 Trinitarian passages in the NT. The passages are there in the NT, my post did not require that they be true.

 

[CherubRam]

I copied this from the same link. Your so-called source is self contradictory.

He maintains however that "since the earliest evidence for the existence of the planetary week [i.e. our present week, named after seven planets] is to be dated toward the end of the first century A.D.," at a time when "the Christians observance of Sunday was a practice of long standing," any influence of Sun-worship on the origin of Sunday is to be categorically excluded.4

4. W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 37; note Rordorf’s categorical statement: "If the question is raised whether the origins of the Christian observance of Sunday are in any way connected with the Sunday observance of the Mithras cult, it must be answered with a definite No" (loc. cit.).

Conclusion. ...
Various Sun-cults were predominant in ancient Rome by the early part of the second century. That these attracted the imagination and interest of Christian converts from paganism, we found evidenced by the development of the theme of Christ-the-Sun, and by the adoption of the eastward orientation for prayer and of the date of the 25th of December. The existence of a rich Biblical tradition which associated the deity with the Sun and Light seemingly facilitated, if it did not encourage such an amalgamation of ideas.​

There are also people who say there is no such thing as secret societies. Constantine the Great was a sun worshipper.

On March 7, 321, the Roman Emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a day of rest from labor, stating:

All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.





Sabbath Judaizers
The Council of Laodicea of around 365 decreed 59 laws, #29:
Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be Judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.