Mother of God

BNR32FAN

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The 8th century is when the iconoclasts arose taking the images OUT of the churches. Images were there almost from the get-go. The house church in Dura-Europos had (has) them, and it was destroyed in the early 3rd century.

I’m not aware of that. I do know that the Eastern churches did insist that the Roman churches remove their images in the 8th century and Rome refused.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The 8th century is when the iconoclasts arose taking the images OUT of the churches. Images were there almost from the get-go. The house church in Dura-Europos had (has) them, and it was destroyed in the early 3rd century.

Iconoclasm has a long and curious history throughout Christendom.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Iconoclasm has a long and curious history throughout Christendom.

It seems a bit odd that the Orthodox Church would insist that the Roman church remove their images and artwork in the 8th century if they already had them in the churches for 400 years.
 
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bbbbbbb

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It seems a bit odd that the Orthodox Church would insist that the Roman church remove their images and artwork in the 8th century if they already had them in the churches for 400 years.

It does, indeed. However, iconoclasm has waxed and waned over history and has hardly reflected a consistent theology.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It does, indeed. However, iconoclasm has waxed and waned over history and has hardly reflected a consistent theology.

I really don’t see a problem with images in the church. They aren’t worshipped like many people think they are. Most people don’t realize that the scriptures pertaining to images are actually referring directly to idols not images. The Hebrew word used in these scriptures is pecel which specifically means carved or graven idol. The Hebrew word tselem means image or likeness but is not used in these verses. Just another inaccurate translation from Hebrew to English most people aren’t aware of.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I really don’t see a problem with images in the church. They aren’t worshipped like many people think they are. Most people don’t realize that the scriptures pertaining to images are actually referring directly to idols not images. The Hebrew word used in these scriptures is pecel which specifically means carved or graven idol. The Hebrew word tselem means image or likeness but is not used in these verses. Just another inaccurate translation from Hebrew to English most people aren’t aware of.

I think it comes down to the individual's faith. For some, representations are nothing more than inanimate pictures or artistic blocks of stone, wood, or plaster. However, for others, these same things have become the repository of the actual divine nature of the person represented, such that entire churches have been constructed to the honor and glory of the icon, not the person necessarily that the icon represents. Thus, for example, in Orthodoxy, especially Russian Orthodoxy, one finds things such as the "miracle-working" icon of St. So-and-So.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think it comes down to the individual's faith. For some, representations are nothing more than inanimate pictures or artistic blocks of stone, wood, or plaster. However, for others, these same things have become the repository of the actual divine nature of the person represented, such that entire churches have been constructed to the honor and glory of the icon, not the person necessarily that the icon represents. Thus, for example, in Orthodoxy, especially Russian Orthodoxy, one finds things such as the "miracle-working" icon of St. So-and-So.

I’m not familiar with miracle working of icons. This is the first I’ve heard about it...

Ok I did some checking and this is interesting news. I’m not going to comment on it because my knowledge on this matter is very limited. I think it’s best not to speculate.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I’m not familiar with miracle working of icons. This is the first I’ve heard about it...

Ok I did some checking and this is interesting news. I’m not going to comment on it because my knowledge on this matter is very limited. I think it’s best not to speculate.

I agree. If others place their faith in an object rather than in God I will not be the one to judge them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I agree. If others place their faith in an object rather than in God I will not be the one to judge them.

I’m curious if God has put any kind of power into objects on the earth? Moses’ staff for example. I’m not aware of any scriptures that say so but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It just means it’s not confirmed by the scriptures. Just a thought.
 
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FenderTL5

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I’m curious if God has put any kind of power into objects on the earth? Moses’ staff for example. I’m not aware of any scriptures that say so but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It just means it’s not confirmed by the scriptures. Just a thought.
"And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts of th Apostles 19:11-12)
"[T]hey even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed." (Acts of the Apostles 5:15-16)
These stories and also the story of woman being healed by touching the clothes of Christ (Mark 5:25-34) are often held up as the prototype of wonderworking relics. These relics are not wonderworking in and of themselves, but God can work through them, cf. Christ to the woman who touched his clothes: "Daughter, your faith has made you well" (Mark 5:34). Even though these stories are about "relics" (things belonging to Christ and the saints), I guess the same goes for wonderworking icons, as icons represent Christ or a saint.
 
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BNR32FAN

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"And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts of th Apostles 19:11-12)
"[T]hey even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed." (Acts of the Apostles 5:15-16)
These stories and also the story of woman being healed by touching the clothes of Christ (Mark 5:25-34) are often held up as the prototype of wonderworking relics. These relics are not wonderworking in and of themselves, but God can work through them, cf. Christ to the woman who touched his clothes: "Daughter, your faith has made you well" (Mark 5:34). Even though these stories are about "relics" (things belonging to Christ and the saints), I guess the same goes for wonderworking icons, as icons represent Christ or a saint.

I think those people experienced miracles because they believed. Not necessarily because of the relics themselves. I doubt the relics would’ve had any affect on nonbelievers.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I think those people experienced miracles because they believed. Not necessarily because of the relics themselves. I doubt the relics would’ve had any affect on nonbelievers.

I agree. One of the difficulties would be whether the faith was in God or in the means by which God performs the miracle.
 
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Mark_Sam

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I think those people experienced miracles because they believed. Not necessarily because of the relics themselves. I doubt the relics would’ve had any affect on nonbelievers.
I agree. One of the difficulties would be whether the faith was in God or in the means by which God performs the miracle.
Yes, they experienced miracles because they believed in God. But there is no contradiction. It was God working through them. Just as God works through the preaching of the Gospel (i.e. vibrating air molecules reaching the eardrums), so God can work miracles through an icon or a relic (i.e. a piece of wood or cloth).
 
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Is Mary the mother of God?
Yes. Jesus was (is) God, even while in the womb. Mary was his mother. Therefore, Mary was (and still is) the mother of God.

The reason for this doctrine of Mary as the mother of God was to refute those who wanted to split Christ into two, one physical and one divine. But Christ's divine and human natures are united.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Yes. Jesus was (is) God, even while in the womb. Mary was his mother. Therefore, Mary was (and still is) the mother of God.

The reason for this doctrine of Mary as the mother of God was to refute those who wanted to split Christ into two, one physical and one divine. But Christ's divine and human natures are united.

The problem is the inference of an undivided human and divine nature of Mary. Obviously, like begets like and if Mary were merely an ordinary human sinner like the rest of us she could never have begotten God.
 
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The problem is the inference of an undivided human and divine nature of Mary. Obviously, like begets like and if Mary were merely an ordinary human sinner like the rest of us she could never have begotten God.
It is because Mary is human that her Son is human. It is because He is also God that Mary is the mother of God. There is no inference of an undivided human and divine nature of Mary.
 
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