Mother of God

[bbbbbbb]

Christian Forums and automobiles are not mentioned in God's Word; therefore God does not want you to know about them either; that makes about as much sense. It's a nonsence argument.

I agree entirely. That is the essential difficulty with the regulative principle of worship. That opens the door to the normative principle of worship which also can become a very slippery slope.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If Jesus is the main event, it should be no surprise that his mother gets less attention than he does, and his grandparents less, and his greatgrandparents even less.

So, do you consider it justified to refer to Joachim and Anna, the presumed names of the parents of Mary, to be the grandfather and grandmother of God?

 

[chevyontheriver]

So, do you consider it justified to refer to Joachim and Anna, the presumed names of the parents of Mary, to be the grandfather and grandmother of God?

Sure.

Jesus had a human mother and human grandparents. That's a fact. Jesus is God. That's a fact. The conclusion is that there is a human mother of God and human grandparents of God. An obvious conclusion. Those who disagree have either lost their logic or really misunderstand the Incarnation or really misunderstand the uncreatedness of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure.

Jesus had a human mother and human grandparents. That's a fact. Jesus is God. That's a fact. The conclusion is that there is a human mother of God and human grandparents of God. An obvious conclusion. Those who disagree have either lost their logic or really misunderstand the Incarnation or really misunderstand the uncreatedness of God.

Thank you.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, do you consider it justified to refer to Joachim and Anna, the presumed names of the parents of Mary, to be the grandfather and grandmother of God?

Why not? If we call Mary "Mother of God", "Mother of our Lord"; one would follow the other, would it not?

 

[Mark_Sam]

So, do you consider it justified to refer to Joachim and Anna, the presumed names of the parents of Mary, to be the grandfather and grandmother of God?

Why not, even though I'm more used to calling them "the mother of the holy mother of God" and "the father of the holy mother of God".

On the flip side, St. James is known as "the brother of our Lord" and St. John the Baptist is the "cousin of our Lord", as opposed to brothers and cousins of God. So I guess there is a line somewhere here. The practice of calling Mary "the mother of God" instead of "the mother of Christ" was especially encouraged to combat the heresy of Nestorianism, even though the title itself is somewhat older.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why not? If we call Mary "Mother of God", "Mother of our Lord"; one would follow the other, would it not?

Yes, it makes sense to me.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why is it that we never hear a thing about the grandfather and grandmother of God?

We do, the grandparents of God are Sts. Joachim and Anna.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why not, even though I'm more used to calling them "the mother of the holy mother of God" and "the father of the holy mother of God".

On the flip side, St. James is known as "the brother of our Lord" and St. John the Baptist is the "cousin of our Lord", as opposed to brothers and cousins of God. So I guess there is a line somewhere here. The practice of calling Mary "the mother of God" instead of "the mother of Christ" was especially encouraged to combat the heresy of Nestorianism, even though the title itself is somewhat older.

Adelphotheos is a traditional term used to describe St. James the Just. So calling him the "Brother of God" is historic and traditional. There's no reason why we shouldn't speak of the grandparents of God, the brothers and sisters of God, or the [step]father of God, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark_Sam]

Adelphotheos is a traditional term used to describe St. James the Just. So calling him the "Brother of God" is historic and traditional. There's no reason why we shouldn't speak of the grandparents of God, the brothers and sisters of God, or the [step]father of God, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

Interesting, I didn't know that. Then I have no problem with it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We do, the grandparents of God are Sts. Joachim and Anna.

-CryptoLutheran

Actually, the grandparents of Jesus Christ via Mary are commonly called Joachim and Anna, which is by tradition only.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Adelphotheos is a traditional term used to describe St. James the Just. So calling him the "Brother of God" is historic and traditional. There's no reason why we shouldn't speak of the grandparents of God, the brothers and sisters of God, or the [step]father of God, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

That, then makes you and myself and every other Christian, the brother or sister of God.

Mark 3:31 Then His mother and His brothers *arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[ViaCrucis]

That, then makes you and myself and every other Christian, the brother or sister of God.

Mark 3:31 Then His mother and His brothers *arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

If you want to think of us, by our adoption in grace, as Christ-God's brethren I'm not going to say otherwise. As joint-heirs with Jesus we are joint-heirs with God, since Christ our Lord is most certainly God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you want to think of us, by our adoption in grace, as Christ-God's brethren I'm not going to say otherwise. As joint-heirs with Jesus we are joint-heirs with God, since Christ our Lord is most certainly God.

-CryptoLutheran

I must confess that it will take a bit of time to wrap my head around calling another Christian God's brother, much less myself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Saying either Mary is the mother of God or she is the mother of Jesus is correct either way. You just have to understand the Catholic position on the matter. They are not implying in any way that Mary is the wife of The Father, or mother of The Trinity. Their emphasis is not to venerate Mary. Instead they are emphasizing that Jesus is God. That Jesus was not just a man or part man and part God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Saying either Mary is the mother of God or she is the mother of Jesus is correct either way. You just have to understand the Catholic position on the matter. They are not implying in any way that Mary is the wife of The Father, or mother of The Trinity. Their emphasis is not to venerate Mary. Instead they are emphasizing that Jesus is God. That Jesus was not just a man or part man and part God.

If anyone does venerate Mary it is assuredly the Roman Catholic Church. Catholics are quite insistent that they do not worship Mary, but that they venerate her instead.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -
1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If anyone does venerate Mary it is assuredly the Roman Catholic Church. Catholics are quite insistent that they do not worship Mary, but that they venerate her instead.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -
1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

I agree but the term mother of God goes back much farther than when the Romans began placing images in the church. The original idea of theostokos dates back to before the council of Ephesus in 431AD and if my memory is correct the problem of images being placed in the church began in the 8th century. Originally the idea was meant to emphasize that Jesus is God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree but the term mother of God goes back much farther than when the Romans began placing images in the church. The original idea of theostokos dates back to before the council of Ephesus in 431AD and if my memory is correct the problem of images being placed in the church began in the 8th century. Originally the idea was meant to emphasize that Jesus is God.

The history of the veneration of Mary is much more complex. Most Catholics believe that veneration of her began during her lifetime, although there is no recorded history, including the primary documents of the New Testament, until several centuries later. The development of the term Theotokos does happen to coincide with the development of the veneration of Mary. Both the Orthodox churches and the Catholic church picked up that ball and began running with it. There is no doubt that the Catholics have taken Marian veneration as far as possible without actually venturing into direct Mariolatry (although some will debate that point).

 

[FenderTL5]

..if my memory is correct the problem of images being placed in the church began in the 8th century..

The 8th century is when the iconoclasts arose taking the images OUT of the churches. Images were there almost from the get-go. The house church in Dura-Europos had (has) them, and it was destroyed in the early 3rd century.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The history of the veneration of Mary is much more complex. Most Catholics believe that veneration of her began during her lifetime, although there is no recorded history, including the primary documents of the New Testament, until several centuries later. The development of the term Theotokos does happen to coincide with the development of the veneration of Mary. Both the Orthodox churches and the Catholic church picked up that ball and began running with it. There is no doubt that the Catholics have taken Marian veneration as far as possible without actually venturing into direct Mariolatry (although some will debate that point).

I would say that is probably more true in the Roman church than the Orthodox Church.