LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[dzheremi]

You said: I'm going to need a source for that last half. It is common knowledge that the more members the more tithes will be collected. More buildings usually means more members.

Yes, but phrasing it as you did makes that sound like that's why they do it, and there's no evidence of that.

Again, the evidence I have been able to find suggests that it would be extremely rare for any Coptic Orthodox priest to be paid along the lines of what is given to your own 'apostles' in your system of supposedly 'unpaid' clergy, so I don't know where you think you're going with this line of inquiry, but it doesn't seem to make Mormon Church look any better.

 

[Rescued One]

Too bad because the commandments are love. That is why it is impossible to know God for those who sin:

Do you know God? They had no testimonies of Mormonism. The elders decided to baptize them anyway. I, at least, believed I had a testimony until I learned more of the non-biblical doctrines and a lot of other things.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4 - 6)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

True.

 

[Rescued One]

We are only saved when we endure to the end:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

No one can endure to the end without first belonging to the Shepherd.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[He is the way]

Wow...I guess there's a profile for the position of "Coptic Orthodox priest" on the professional/business website LinkedIn?! So strange.

Anyway, as you will see there, the average salary is $48,000 per year. That's about 8K less than the average household income in the United States, which is $56,516.

So I'm still not seeing how being a priest is so incredibly lucrative.

Meanwhile, it would appear that your 'apostles' make significantly more than that. Elder Eyring apparently made around $86,000 in 2000, according to leaked pay records, and also the 'living allowances' given reach into six figures...how is this not just payment (and quite substantial payment, at that) disguised as other things in the ledger so that you can keep up your claim of having 'no paid clergy', as though that makes you morally superior in the first place?

As usual, when it comes to Mormon claims against other churches, the most fitting response is "Physician, heal thyself".

The living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from business income and not from the tithing of the people
Some members of the Church are unaware that some General Authorities receive a modest stipend as a living allowance. Nevertheless, it cannot be said that the Church has a professional ministry in the traditional sense.

Calls to serve in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles or the First Quorum of the Seventy are calls to “for-life” positions, members of the Twelve serving full-time until they die and members of the First Quorum of Seventy serving full-time until retirement to emeritus status at age seventy. At the present time, calls to other Quorums of the Seventy do not require the same full-time commitment, so those who serve in these positions do not receive the living allowances.

 

[He is the way]

They must "keep the commandments" "after all they can do" and "endure to the end". It seems like they miss God's grace.

It seems like we believe the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 6)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[He is the way]

Do you know God? They had no testimonies of Mormonism. The elders decided to baptize them anyway. I, at least, believed I had a testimony until I learned more of the non-biblical doctrines and a lot of other things.
True.

I still have my testimony. I haven't lost it. I know God lives and that Jesus Christ died for us and took upon Himself the sins of those who repent. Not those that are sorry they got caught, but those who have Godly sorrow for their sins. I also know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Joseph Smith did not make it up nor could he or any other person.

 

[He is the way]

No one can endure to the end without first belonging to the Shepherd.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Except for children that die before the age of accountability and those who lived without the law, you are correct. Jesus gave us the two great commandments which I believe are the hardest to keep. They are truly about LOVE. All of the other commandments hang on them because the commandments are LOVE. I pray that we will learn to LOVE one another as God LOVES us because God is LOVE. It is all about LOVE.

 

[Rescued One]

I still have my testimony. I haven't lost it. I know God lives and that Jesus Christ died for us and took upon Himself the sins of those who repent. Not those that are sorry they got caught, but those who have Godly sorrow for their sins. I also know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Joseph Smith did not make it up nor could he or any other person.

I'm extremely grateful for God's unbelievable mercy and love to me!

BIBLE:
1 Timothy 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)



22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 “The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in him.”

 

[Rescued One]

Except for children that die before the age of accountability and those who lived without the law, you are correct.

Eight-year-olds don't know what they're getting into. Everyone sins, law or no law.

Jesus gave us the two great commandments which I believe are the hardest to keep. They are truly about LOVE. All of the other commandments hang on them because the commandments are LOVE. I pray that we will learn to LOVE one another as God LOVES us because God is LOVE. It is all about LOVE.

According to Mormonism, you are supposed to keep your second estate --- time is running out. Will you start keeping all the Mormon commandments right now?

Doctrine and Covenants 132
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

 

[dzheremi]

The living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from business income and not from the tithing of the people

You can call it whatever you want; it's still payment for being in that official position, so this is really just semantics, in the popular sense.

Some members of the Church are unaware that some General Authorities receive a modest stipend as a living allowance. Nevertheless, it cannot be said that the Church has a professional ministry in the traditional sense.

Well duh...you don't have actual clergy, so how could you have a professional ministry in the traditional sense? That's silly.

Calls to serve in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles or the First Quorum of the Seventy are calls to “for-life” positions

So is the priesthood, unless a person is for some reason laicized/defrocked, or becomes too old or ill to serve. But it is normal that they should serve until they die. There are even some cases like that of HG Bishop Macarius of Qena in Egypt, when the servant reposes while praying the liturgy. We should all be so blessed.

members of the Twelve serving full-time until they die and members of the First Quorum of Seventy serving full-time until retirement to emeritus status at age seventy. At the present time, calls to other Quorums of the Seventy do not require the same full-time commitment, so those who serve in these positions do not receive the living allowances.

Okay. The point is that these allowances seem to sometimes be quite a bit more than you were trying to criticize my own Church for paying its priests, so it seems pretty hypocritical on the part of Mormons to do such things just because they call what they give their authorities something other than a salary. If they're receiving it for being in that position, and it's not going to charitable purposes or something but being kept as their personal money that they have received as a result of their position, then it's a salary.

 

[Rescued One]

There are many people who call themselves Christians who are born again (baptized) and continue to sin.

So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world? How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan? How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth? Mormons don't recognize non-Mormon baptisms! Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?

 

[Rescued One]

You can call it whatever you want; it's still payment for being in that official position, so this is really just semantics, in the popular sense.



Well duh...you don't have actual clergy, so how could you have a professional ministry in the traditional sense? That's silly.



So is the priesthood, unless a person is for some reason laicized/defrocked, or becomes too old or ill to serve. But it is normal that they should serve until they die. There are even some cases like that of HG Bishop Macarius of Qena in Egypt, when the servant reposes while praying the liturgy. We should all be so blessed.



Okay. The point is that these allowances seem to sometimes be quite a bit more than you were trying to criticize my own Church for paying its priests, so it seems pretty hypocritical on the part of Mormons to do such things just because they call what they give their authorities something other than a salary. If they're receiving it for being in that position, and it's not going to charitable purposes or something but being kept as their personal money that they have received as a result of their position, then it's a salary.

LDS General Authorities usually come from the elite who have more than a bachelor's degree. They've been earning a lot of money.

THOMAS S. MONSON: GENERAL MANAGER OF THE DESERET NEWS PRESS

Monson had a distinguished career in printing and publishing. Monson's first job out of college was with Deseret News where he quickly climbed the ranks and became an advertising executive. He also served as an executive in the advertising division of the Newspaper Agency Corporation. Some time later, he was named sales manager and then general manager of the Deseret News Press, the largest printing plant in the United States west of the Mississippi River at the time. Monson also served for many years as a board member of several prominent businesses.

RUSSELL M. NELSON: WORLD RENOWNED HEART SURGEON

Nelson is an internationally renowned cardiothoracic surgeon and medical researcher. Nelson is know for building the first heart-lung bypass machine used on a human. He then used that machine to perform the very first open-heart surgery in Utah. Many honors and awards have been given to Nelson for his work in the medicine world. He has authored numerous publications and chapters in medical textbooks, lectured and trained all over the world, and served as president, chairman, and director of many organizations.

DALLIN H. OAKS: JUSTICE OF THE UTAH SUPREME COURT, PRESIDENT OF BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY

Oaks practiced law in Chicago and was also a professor of law at the University of Chicago Law School, the same school he received his Law Degree. He mainly taught in the fields of trust and estate law, as well as gift taxation law. Oaks served as president of BYU from 1971-1980. He was appointed as a justice on the Utah Supreme Court from 1980-1984. Oaks has been an officer or member of the board of many educational, business, and charitable organizations. He is also the author or co-author of many articles and books on legal and religious subjects.
https://www.thepeculiarppl.com/business-tech/2017/8/21/12-apostles-previous-occupations

 

[dzheremi]

I have a master's degree...where's my $116,000 'living allowance'?!

 

[He is the way]

Eight-year-olds don't know what they're getting into. Everyone sins, law or no law.



According to Mormonism, you are supposed to keep your second estate --- time is running out. Will you start keeping all the Mormon commandments right now?

Doctrine and Covenants 132
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

That is my goal.

 

[He is the way]

You can call it whatever you want; it's still payment for being in that official position, so this is really just semantics, in the popular sense.



Well duh...you don't have actual clergy, so how could you have a professional ministry in the traditional sense? That's silly.



So is the priesthood, unless a person is for some reason laicized/defrocked, or becomes too old or ill to serve. But it is normal that they should serve until they die. There are even some cases like that of HG Bishop Macarius of Qena in Egypt, when the servant reposes while praying the liturgy. We should all be so blessed.



Okay. The point is that these allowances seem to sometimes be quite a bit more than you were trying to criticize my own Church for paying its priests, so it seems pretty hypocritical on the part of Mormons to do such things just because they call what they give their authorities something other than a salary. If they're receiving it for being in that position, and it's not going to charitable purposes or something but being kept as their personal money that they have received as a result of their position, then it's a salary.

You are using tithes to pay your leaders yet you criticise the way the LDS Church uses our tithes and the for profit tax paying arm of the church when we actually have much in common. In essence you are being critical of the operation of your own church and that is why your mud won't stick.

 

[He is the way]

I have a master's degree...where's my $116,000 'living allowance'?!

Well my boss made over $400,000 a year and I don't believe he even had a master's degree. One of my daughter-in-laws has her master's and I doubt she makes as much as you do. Life is not monetarily fair.

 

[He is the way]

So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world? How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan? How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth? Mormons don't recognize non-Mormon baptisms! Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?

Missionaries are not trained to baptize non-believers. Missionaries teach people to believe in and follow Jesus Christ and His teachings. We believe in keeping the commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

You are using tithes to pay your leaders yet you criticise the way the LDS Church uses our tithes and the for profit tax paying arm of the church when we actually have much in common. In essence you are being critical of the operation of your own church and that is why your mud won't stick.

It's not my fault if you can't distinguish between operating a for-profit tourist trap in Hawaii (what your religion does) and operating a non-profit hospital in Kenya or a non-profit orphanage in Bolivia (what my religion does).

Also, again, none of this changes the fact that your religion purposely hides its finances and openly tells its tithing members that they're going to use your tithes for whatever it wants to use them for, and there's nothing you can do about it. I've already given one example of a Coptic priest being fired (basically) for doing what your church does as a matter of course (making private, for-profit investments).

There's a world of difference between how your religion operates and how actual Christian churches operate.

 

[Rescued One]

Missionaries are not trained to baptize non-believers. Missionaries teach people to believe in and follow Jesus Christ and His teachings. We believe in keeping the commandments.

They teach a tiny bit of Mormonism instead of the commandments of Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

That is my goal.

Time is running out. There's a saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." "Ye must be born again" so that you recognize that your works don't contribute to your status in the next life.