LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[He is the way]

The LDS Church is taking your donations and then doing whatever they want with them.

So. There are concerns with the Coptic Orthodox Church too:

https://justadreamerhere.wordpress....in-the-coptic-orthodox-church/comment-page-1/

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2010/06/03/you-cant-just-marry-anyone

You are supposed to tithe:

http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/252/frequently-asked-questions-on-tithing-to-the-churc/

 

[dzheremi]

So. There are concerns with the Coptic Orthodox Church too:

https://justadreamerhere.wordpress....in-the-coptic-orthodox-church/comment-page-1/

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2010/06/03/you-cant-just-marry-anyone

So what? Cultural traditions creep into the Church and because Coptic men are sexist sometimes (because Egypt is a sexist, misogynistic society), sometimes women have problems with the Church. Hopefully the Egyptian men will change as subsequent generations integrate into western societies where such behavior is socially frowned upon. The Coptic young people I've met, including young men, are much more like the woman from the blog post than the men she describes, so I firmly believe it is a matter of inculturation. Not that this matters, since it doesn't have anything to do with anything. You're just throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. There's not even anything on tithing in that blog post, it's just a general "Your church has problems too, so nyehhhh!" useless non-observation. How does that have anything to do with how the Mormon Church runs itself like a corporation? (The actual topic of the conversation.) It doesn't. You have nothing.

And it's GOOD that you can't just marry anyone. Thank God! Our Orthodox faith is the most important thing. We don't allow people to just do whatever they want. I personally know one Coptic man who married a very nice Jewish lady when he came to America and as a result he cannot receive the Eucharist anymore in the Church, because he didn't bring her into the Church first as is supposed to happen; he just had a civil marriage. So the Church did not and could not bless such a thing -- as Jews and Orthodox Christians do not share the same faith, and the Church is not a functionary of the government in any case -- and his having sought a marriage outside of the Church places him outside of it. This is common knowledge among all Coptic people, not some kind of undue hardship that they're being burdened with because the Economist says HH Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory is 'conservative'. The faith is conservative! We do not change because you want to marry some heathen. Go off to the Evangelical Church if Orthodox doctrine and faith do not matter to you, because you think it is 'wrong' or whatever that you cannot do whatever you want and have it blessed by the Church. It's not a mindless sacrament-dispensing machine to begin with, so goodbye.

Remember, we are the Church whose leaders said this over the singing of hymns in one particular church:

"We here will sing, and all 20 million Coptic Orthodox are joyful in, the ORTHODOX hymns that are being sung at the moment. And he who wants to sing Protestant songs or non-Orthodox songs on their platforms should leave along with those we have already sent away, and here we will sing Orthodox songs." (HG Bishop Abanoub, cleansing the Church of St. Simon the Tanner at Muqattam)

We're fine with those who will not follow the rules being told to leave. We do not joke around with any of this stuff. Better that they leave than spread their poison. And ideally it is this way with everything, not just hymns, because after all only Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. Accept no substitutes, no matter how much easier they are.

You are supposed to tithe:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/252/frequently-asked-questions-on-tithing-to-the-churc/

When have I ever even hinted otherwise? Oh, that's right: never, because this conversation is not about the Coptic Orthodox Church. You think I don't know what my own bishop says? Ufff...you are getting desperate to play the "I'm rubber, you're glue" game, but it's just not going to work, because again, my Church is not a corporation. You are not comparing like with like here.

 

[Ironhold]

because again, my Church is not a corporation.

You might want to check on that, especially considering US tax law.

If your church is officially a non-profit organization, there's a good chance it's been incorporated in some fashion.

 

[He is the way]

So what? Cultural traditions creep into the Church and because Coptic men are sexist sometimes (because Egypt is a sexist, misogynistic society), sometimes women have problems with the Church. Hopefully the Egyptian men will change as subsequent generations integrate into western societies where such behavior is socially frowned upon. The Coptic young people I've met, including young men, are much more like the woman from the blog post than the men she describes, so I firmly believe it is a matter of inculturation. Not that this matters, since it doesn't have anything to do with anything. You're just throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. There's not even anything on tithing in that blog post, it's just a general "Your church has problems too, so nyehhhh!" useless non-observation. How does that have anything to do with how the Mormon Church runs itself like a corporation? (The actual topic of the conversation.) It doesn't. You have nothing.

And it's GOOD that you can't just marry anyone. Thank God! Our Orthodox faith is the most important thing. We don't allow people to just do whatever they want. I personally know one Coptic man who married a very nice Jewish lady when he came to America and as a result he cannot receive the Eucharist anymore in the Church, because he didn't bring her into the Church first as is supposed to happen; he just had a civil marriage. So the Church did not and could not bless such a thing -- as Jews and Orthodox Christians do not share the same faith, and the Church is not a functionary of the government in any case -- and his having sought a marriage outside of the Church places him outside of it. This is common knowledge among all Coptic people, not some kind of undue hardship that they're being burdened with because the Economist says HH Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory is 'conservative'. The faith is conservative! We do not change because you want to marry some heathen. Go off to the Evangelical Church if Orthodox doctrine and faith do not matter to you, because you think it is 'wrong' or whatever that you cannot do whatever you want and have it blessed by the Church. It's not a mindless sacrament-dispensing machine to begin with, so goodbye.

Remember, we are the Church whose leaders said this over the singing of hymns in one particular church:

"We here will sing, and all 20 million Coptic Orthodox are joyful in, the ORTHODOX hymns that are being sung at the moment. And he who wants to sing Protestant songs or non-Orthodox songs on their platforms should leave along with those we have already sent away, and here we will sing Orthodox songs." (HG Bishop Abanoub, cleansing the Church of St. Simon the Tanner at Muqattam)

We're fine with those who will not follow the rules being told to leave. We do not joke around with any of this stuff. Better that they leave than spread their poison. And ideally it is this way with everything, not just hymns, because after all only Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. Accept no substitutes, no matter how much easier they are.



When have I ever even hinted otherwise? Oh, that's right: never, because this conversation is not about the Coptic Orthodox Church. You think I don't know what my own bishop says? Ufff...you are getting desperate to play the "I'm rubber, you're glue" game, but it's just not going to work, because again, my Church is not a corporation. You are not comparing like with like here.

Just making some comparisons with the things you believe are wrong with the LDS Church. Seems to me you live in a glass house and are throwing rocks. I can sum up the Bible by saying that salvation and saving ordinances is an individual thing which applies to this passage:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[He is the way]

How does that have anything to do with how the Mormon Church runs itself like a corporation? (The actual topic of the conversation.) It doesn't. You have nothing.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2012/rco/article-21/454/

 

[dzheremi]

Of course they're incorporated in the sense of having bishops as trustees and whatnot because that is part of US law, that you can't just have a giant fund collecting somewhere (e.g., through donations) with nobody overseeing it and still be petitioning the government for tax-free status. If the government is going to give you anything (like that status), they want to see that you're not essentially using your status as a religious organization to amass tons of tax-free money for personal use. This is why, for instance, the Church of Scientology originally had its tax-exempt status taken away, after it was found that L. Ron Hubbard was using the money he had collected for his personal needs and desires. There are still laws to be followed, and in a U.S. context one of the ways that is available to make sure that you are in concert with the laws when forming your organization is to incorporate it.

When I write that it is not a corporation, I mean that it does not act like a for-profit corporation, unlike the Mormon Church: it doesn't run for-profit companies; outside of building churches and monasteries and some associated educational, medical and humanitarian facilities (e.g., the Coptic hospital in Kenya; the Coptic orphanage in Bolivia, etc.), it is not involved in land deals (certainly never for the expansion of for-profit businesses, since that's a Mormon peculiarity); it doesn't have politicians in its pocket (see the earlier video with the Oregon senator meeting with the Quorum of the Twelve to receive his marching orders), etc. I'll reconsider this stance when the Coptic Orthodox Church buys up all the free land in Tennessee or some other random state (a la Florida) to open up a giant for-profit venture on it, and attempts to charge those who have the misfortune of living on that land for their own basic life needs. Until then, I maintain that there is no reasonable comparison between the two.

Geez...you freaking people...you'd be comparing your Corporate Church to the local chapter of the Girl Scouts (which is also a corporation...oh nooo!) if you thought that could make it look more benign. This is just sad.

I can't tell if you've genuinely misunderstood the argument being made, or if you're just hoping to play "gotcha!" by pretending that I am unaware of my own Church's legal status in the United States, where I live.

 

[Rescued One]

Good scriptures they apply to those who love Jesus and keep His word. The new birth is baptism.

My relatives who were baptized were NOT born again. They didn't have a change of heart or a desire to obey the rules of Mormonism.

 

[Rescued One]

Good scriptures they apply to those who love Jesus and keep His word. The new birth is baptism.

LDS: Being Born Again Not Sufficient

 

[He is the way]

My relatives who were baptized were NOT born again. They didn't have a change of heart or a desire to obey the rules of Mormonism.

There are many people who call themselves Christians who are born again (baptized) and continue to sin.

 

[He is the way]

My relatives who were baptized were NOT born again. They didn't have a change of heart or a desire to obey the rules of Mormonism.

Too bad because the commandments are love. That is why it is impossible to know God for those who sin:

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4 - 6)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[He is the way]

LDS: Being Born Again Not Sufficient

We are only saved when we endure to the end:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[dzheremi]

There are many people who call themselves Christians who are born again (baptized) and continue to sin.

This is the struggle of life...particularly the Christian life. Remember St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans:

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Why is this being questioned now? For the benefit of Mormonism, somehow? I would think Mormons also struggle...

 

[twin.spin]

My relatives who were baptized were NOT born again. They didn't have a change of heart or a desire to obey the rules of Mormonism.

Mormon baptisms are not valid since the LDS church is not a Christian church.

Biblical Christianity teaches that God wonderfully uses baptism to connect people to Christ (Romans 6:3-4). Through it, God bestows the benefits of Christ's perfect life and sacrificial death. The blessings of baptism include the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), a new spiritual life (Romans 6:4), and eternal salvation (1 Peter 3:21).

 

[He is the way]

Of course they're incorporated in the sense of having bishops as trustees and whatnot because that is part of US law, that you can't just have a giant fund collecting somewhere (e.g., through donations) with nobody overseeing it and still be petitioning the government for tax-free status. If the government is going to give you anything (like that status), they want to see that you're not essentially using your status as a religious organization to amass tons of tax-free money for personal use. This is why, for instance, the Church of Scientology originally had its tax-exempt status taken away, after it was found that L. Ron Hubbard was using the money he had collected for his personal needs and desires. There are still laws to be followed, and in a U.S. context one of the ways that is available to make sure that you are in concert with the laws when forming your organization is to incorporate it.

When I write that it is not a corporation, I mean that it does not act like a for-profit corporation, unlike the Mormon Church: it doesn't run for-profit companies; outside of building churches and monasteries and some associated educational, medical and humanitarian facilities (e.g., the Coptic hospital in Kenya; the Coptic orphanage in Bolivia, etc.), it is not involved in land deals (certainly never for the expansion of for-profit businesses, since that's a Mormon peculiarity); it doesn't have politicians in its pocket (see the earlier video with the Oregon senator meeting with the Quorum of the Twelve to receive his marching orders), etc. I'll reconsider this stance when the Coptic Orthodox Church buys up all the free land in Tennessee or some other random state (a la Florida) to open up a giant for-profit venture on it, and attempts to charge those who have the misfortune of living on that land for their own basic life needs. Until then, I maintain that there is no reasonable comparison between the two.

Geez...you freaking people...you'd be comparing your Corporate Church to the local chapter of the Girl Scouts (which is also a corporation...oh nooo!) if you thought that could make it look more benign. This is just sad.

I can't tell if you've genuinely misunderstood the argument being made, or if you're just hoping to play "gotcha!" by pretending that I am unaware of my own Church's legal status in the United States, where I live.

The Coptic Orthodox Church collects money, a lot of money. They buy land and build buildings so they can get more money. The Coptic Orthodox Church has a paid clergy:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/28490/report-what-are-orthodox-priests-paid/

 

[He is the way]

This is the struggle of life...particularly the Christian life. Remember St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans:

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Why is this being questioned now? For the benefit of Mormonism, somehow? I would think Mormons also struggle...

Yes it is a struggle but it is imperative that do our best not to sin.

 

[He is the way]

Mormon baptisms are not valid since the LDS church is not a Christian church.

Biblical Christianity teaches that God wonderfully uses baptism to connect people to Christ (Romans 6:3-4). Through it, God bestows the benefits of Christ's perfect life and sacrificial death. The blessings of baptism include the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), a new spiritual life (Romans 6:4), and eternal salvation (1 Peter 3:21).

Where is your authority to baptize?

 

[dzheremi]

The Coptic Orthodox Church collects money, a lot of money. They buy land and build buildings so they can get more money. The Coptic Orthodox Church has a paid clergy:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/28490/report-what-are-orthodox-priests-paid/

"They buy land and build buildings so they can get more money"? I'm going to need a source for that last half. Whenever I have received a diocesan newsletter, for instance, or an appeal from the monastery in New York (or any other thing connected to the finances of the Church), it has always been spelled out very clearly how much money they are taking in, how much they need, and what they need it for. It's really not about making money.

Your link, on the other hand, is about the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Coptic Orthodox Church. Those are completely different organzations, not in communion with each other in the first place, and certainly not able to be used for comparisons of this type. If you actually read what you yourself linked, you'd see that it talks about the payment of priests in Greece proper, and says that they are paid by the state (as Greek Orthodoxy is the state religion there). Do you think that this happens for Coptic Orthodox priests in Egypt, Libya, or Sudan -- all of which are Islamic countries? It doesn't.

Please read what you intend to link before you do so to avoid such silly mistakes in the future.

Coptic Orthodox priests are paid (yes, and why shouldn't they be? Because it doesn't match with Mormonism's anti-Bible ethos which for some reason says that the laborer is not worthy of his wage?) by their diocese, which means that it will vary quite a bit according to where they serve. In richer areas, they can get more, while in poorer or more diffuse areas, they will get less. I could not find actual numbers anywhere official, but here is an interesting discussion on the topic from Tasbeha.org, a Coptic Orthodox discussion board.

Some highlights from the discussion:

"ok this is definitely not the majority of priests you are speaking of. In general, you would be very hard pressed to find congregations who can afford this, let alone boards who approve of this. Usually when a congregation hits a certain amount of income, you find that another priest is added to help out rather than one priest getting a raise. Im not saying that it doesn't happen, but even 100k+ for a priest is hitting the 1% range of all coptic priests."

"Do some priests seriously make that much money? That's way too much honestly. I see priests in Upper Egypt or poor regions in Cairo with torn tonias and can't afford to buy a new one. Wouldn't that money be better spent on orphans/widows/poor families back in Egypt struggling to just feed themselves everyday (specially during these turbulent times)?"

It seems from this (which is not an official discussion in any way, but is the only thing I could find about Coptic priests in particular), it would be very rare to find any priest who would make very much money being a priest. I know our own priests Fr. Marcus and Fr. Philemon had to travel from Arizona to serve us, so they could only come once or twice a month, and when they did come there, it was always an honor to pick up abouna from the airport in your own car, so there was no fancy car for him -- it was all volunteer. Same with housing him for the weekend, since there was no priest's residence, since we did not have a permanent priest nor a church (we only got the permit for the Church about two years after I arrived, and it was actually a small room inside a larger office building, with no space for anyone to live in). When I went to Arizona for baptism, I stayed in the small house they had that was adjacent to the Church of St. Mark in Scottsdale, which was the priest's residence, and was certainly nothing fancy. Neither was the church itself, really, though it was much bigger than I was used to (and an actual church building, while we still worshiped in a private home, as the community in NM had for 15+ years by that point). And the one time we did drive around there, when abouna needed to go out for something or other (I don't remember what), it was in an old van that had been provided for him by the diocese.

So I'm afraid that your fantasy of rich Coptic priests is a bit outside of reality, my friend. It may be that in some very populated, well-off places the priests get paid more (like the discussion says, there are some places in Canada like that), but those are really outliers. Like most worldwide churches, the bulk of our congregation are poor people -- and that includes the priests, by and large.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow...I guess there's a profile for the position of "Coptic Orthodox priest" on the professional/business website LinkedIn?! So strange.

Anyway, as you will see there, the average salary is $48,000 per year. That's about 8K less than the average household income in the United States, which is $56,516.

So I'm still not seeing how being a priest is so incredibly lucrative.

Meanwhile, it would appear that your 'apostles' make significantly more than that. Elder Eyring apparently made around $86,000 in 2000, according to leaked pay records, and also the 'living allowances' given reach into six figures...how is this not just payment (and quite substantial payment, at that) disguised as other things in the ledger so that you can keep up your claim of having 'no paid clergy', as though that makes you morally superior in the first place?

As usual, when it comes to Mormon claims against other churches, the most fitting response is "Physician, heal thyself".

 

[BigDaddy4]

Why is this being questioned now? For the benefit of Mormonism, somehow? I would think Mormons also struggle...

They must "keep the commandments" "after all they can do" and "endure to the end". It seems like they miss God's grace.

 

[He is the way]

"They buy land and build buildings so they can get more money"? I'm going to need a source for that last half. Whenever I have received a diocesan newsletter, for instance, or an appeal from the monastery in New York (or any other thing connected to the finances of the Church), it has always been spelled out very clearly how much money they are taking in, how much they need, and what they need it for. It's really not about making money.

Your link, on the other hand, is about the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Coptic Orthodox Church. Those are completely different organzations, not in communion with each other in the first place, and certainly not able to be used for comparisons of this type. If you actually read what you yourself linked, you'd see that it talks about the payment of priests in Greece proper, and says that they are paid by the state (as Greek Orthodoxy is the state religion there). Do you think that this happens for Coptic Orthodox priests in Egypt, Libya, or Sudan -- all of which are Islamic countries? It doesn't.

Please read what you intend to link before you do so to avoid such silly mistakes in the future.

Coptic Orthodox priests are paid (yes, and why shouldn't they be? Because it doesn't match with Mormonism's anti-Bible ethos which for some reason says that the laborer is not worthy of his wage?) by their diocese, which means that it will vary quite a bit according to where they serve. In richer areas, they can get more, while in poorer or more diffuse areas, they will get less. I could not find actual numbers anywhere official, but here is an interesting discussion on the topic from Tasbeha.org, a Coptic Orthodox discussion board.

Some highlights from the discussion:

"ok this is definitely not the majority of priests you are speaking of. In general, you would be very hard pressed to find congregations who can afford this, let alone boards who approve of this. Usually when a congregation hits a certain amount of income, you find that another priest is added to help out rather than one priest getting a raise. Im not saying that it doesn't happen, but even 100k+ for a priest is hitting the 1% range of all coptic priests."

"Do some priests seriously make that much money? That's way too much honestly. I see priests in Upper Egypt or poor regions in Cairo with torn tonias and can't afford to buy a new one. Wouldn't that money be better spent on orphans/widows/poor families back in Egypt struggling to just feed themselves everyday (specially during these turbulent times)?"

It seems from this (which is not an official discussion in any way, but is the only thing I could find about Coptic priests in particular), it would be very rare to find any priest who would make very much money being a priest. I know our own priests Fr. Marcus and Fr. Philemon had to travel from Arizona to serve us, so they could only come once or twice a month, and when they did come there, it was always an honor to pick up abouna from the airport in your own car, so there was no fancy car for him -- it was all volunteer. Same with housing him for the weekend, since there was no priest's residence, since we did not have a permanent priest nor a church (we only got the permit for the Church about two years after I arrived, and it was actually a small room inside a larger office building, with no space for anyone to live in). When I went to Arizona for baptism, I stayed in the small house they had that was adjacent to the Church of St. Mark in Scottsdale, which was the priest's residence, and was certainly nothing fancy. Neither was the church itself, really, though it was much bigger than I was used to (and an actual church building, while we still worshiped in a private home, as the community in NM had for 15+ years by that point). And the one time we did drive around there, when abouna needed to go out for something or other (I don't remember what), it was in an old van that had been provided for him by the diocese.

So I'm afraid that your fantasy of rich Coptic priests is a bit outside of reality, my friend. It may be that in some very populated, well-off places the priests get paid more (like the discussion says, there are some places in Canada like that), but those are really outliers. Like most worldwide churches, the bulk of our congregation are poor people -- and that includes the priests, by and large.

You said: I'm going to need a source for that last half. It is common knowledge that the more members the more tithes will be collected. More buildings usually means more members.

You said: "Your link, on the other hand, is about the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Coptic Orthodox Church." I apologise, you are correct, and I stand corrected.