LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[Jane_Doe]

Souncd like a lot of gnosticism....but their God has a physical body. This is not biblical monotheism. Thrir notion of the Trinity is three separate beings. All this is likr ancient pagan religion.

LDS are monotheists and believe every word of the Bible. Again, the belief is three divine persons in one God.

LDS disagree with the Athanasian Creed and it's description of consubstantiation.

 

[Duvduv]

They disagree with alot more than that!!

 

[Jane_Doe]

They disagree with alot more than that!!

The big disagreement here is consubstantiation: how different persons are ONE God.

You'd be amazed how many people misunderstand that and the wild weird conclusions spun off that misunderstanding.

 

[Duvduv]

I've wondered what a debate would look like between a Catholic, a Baptist, a Mormon, and a Jehovah's Witness....? Sure would be interesting ...

 

[Duvduv]

The big disagreement here is consubstantiation: how different persons are ONE God.

You'd be amazed how many people misunderstand that and the wild weird conclusions spun off that misunderstanding.

That doesn't address the issue of the God with a body and three separate and independent persons. From an outsider perspective I could not be the referee among them...

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, LDS aren't really secretive at all. Just got make sure the background is understood first.

Does this mean that you will explain to us in detail the exact contents of the temple rituals -- what is done and said when, where, and why/what it all means -- such that we would not have to view them in covertly-filmed videos?

I remember another poster (I think it was ArmenianJohn, but I can't remember exactly) once asking about a specific token of the LDS ritual by name, and it was not freely discussed then, just as it has not been freely discussed at any point in the past that I can remember. Has the LDS church changed its tune recently regarding sharing the specifics of its temple ceremonies with others? That would be a most welcome move.

 

[Rescued One]

This simply means that that you got to properly understand the background first. After all, if a person is misunderstanding the background on any concept, they're not going to understand anything at all past that. For example:

- LDS are monotheists who believe in the Bible. The difference between Creedal beliefs and LDS beliefs are in how the different persons Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God together.

Why do you disregard your official teachings that come from your scripture?

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4

The Book of Abraham,
Chapter 4
The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.
Abraham 4

Doctrine and Covenants 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831. See Official Declaration 1...

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
Doctrine and Covenants 132

- LDS don't believe that God was created.

Etc.

Actually, LDS aren't really secretive at all. Just got make sure the background is understood first. If you want me to clarify any other point, feel free to ask.

The statements you've been saying aren't actual LDS beliefs. Again, I'm happy to clarify any point.

What you post disregards Mormon scripture and your church's secret temple covenants.

 

[Duvduv]

How different would they be from the Witnesses or the Moonies and World Missoo Church of God??
How does the Mormon church decide when someone is ready to learn the secret teachings and rituals.

 

[Duvduv]

By the way, the Mormon website chat person did tell me that Joseph Smith had some kind of connection with the the Freemasons. I think I read that Taze Russell and or Rutherford of the Jehovah's Witnesses had also been a freemason.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I've wondered what a debate would look like between a Catholic, a Baptist, a Mormon, and a Jehovah's Witness....? Sure would be interesting ...

Not really. We all have different theological concepts that other frequently misunderstand and we've explained a million times and will have to explain a million more. Just like Jews do.

That doesn't address the issue of the God with a body and three separate and independent persons.

Trinitarians also believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are different persons. Both concepts are three person is one God.

 

[Duvduv]

The regular Trinity does not constitute three separate individuals. The Mormon trjnity does.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The regular Trinity does not constitute three separate individuals.

Actually the Athanasian Creed specifically states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three persons: "For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Duvduv]

I don't recall that the Athanesian creed stipulated three separate divine beings, but regardless, this is what Mormons believe.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't recall that the Athanesian creed stipulated three separate divine beings.

"Person" and "being" have two different definitions under Trinitarian theology (that's one reason it's so confusing).

 

[dzheremi]

Actually the Athanasian Creed specifically states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three persons: "For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost."

The problem for the Mormon godhead, however, is that the persons within it are not of one and the same ousia/essence/substance. So if you say "three" and we say "three", we may be affirming the same number but we are actually still not talking about the same thing, because you have three heteroousian gods who are therefore united as any three people who are in no way divine may be, whereas our theology demands the recognition of one God only, manifest in three hypostases (this is the Greek word as used in the Nicene Creed, which we all confess; the Pseudo-Athanasian Creed is a later Latin creed that came out of the west about a century after the death of the saint it was attributed to, and hence is not reliable or accepted), so as to both maintain the equality within the Godhead (as they all share one and the same divinity), and to not confuse the Persons (because the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit is not either, and neither are the Holy Spirit).

St. Basil of Caesarea (330-379) explains the Nicene Christian terminology, and why we use it:

The distinction between ousia and hypostases is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear.

 

[Duvduv]

How is it that only the LDS connected directly with the Utah sect possess the secret beliefs and practices? Were they invented by Brigham Young? Apparently the Community of Christ and other breakaway sects never restricted Blacks, never had the beliefs of a physical God, Kolob, etc., or secret Masonic rituals. If they originated with Joseph Smith wouldn't they also have them all? In any case do the Brighamists and they all consider each other apostates?

 

[Duvduv]

Do other non-LDS consider thr CoC (formerly Reorganized Church) to be Christian if the church doesn't adhere to the beliefs and practices of the Utah LDS even if they still believe in the Book of Mormon? I believe there's another sect that is mainstream Protestant except for believing in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Jane_Doe]

How is it that only the LDS connected directly with the Utah sect possess the secret beliefs and practices? Were they invented by Brigham Young? Apparently the Community of Christ and other breakaway sects never restricted Blacks, never had the beliefs of a physical God, Kolob, etc., or secret Masonic rituals. If they originated with Joseph Smith wouldn't they also have them all? In any case do the Brighamists and they all consider each other apostates?

CoC aren't LDS, they're CoC. It's a whole different church with different beliefs. They've gone through their own metamorphosis over the years.

Do other non-LDS consider thr CoC (formerly Reorganized Church) to be Christian if the church doesn't adhere to the beliefs and practices of the Utah LDS even if they still believe in the Book of Mormon? I believe there's another sect that is mainstream Protestant except for believing in the Book of Mormon.

That's all dependent on how you define the word "Christian". You'll find answers all over the place depending on the definition.

 

[Duvduv]

Jane, however the CoC trace their church to Joseph Smith, so why wouldn't they have all those beliefs and rituals unless they were introduced later by Brigham Young?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane, however the CoC trace their church to Joseph Smith, so why wouldn't they have all those beliefs and rituals unless they were introduced later by Brigham Young?

Your question is a lot like: "But well how come Methodists aren't good Renaissance-age Catholics since they trace their roots from there as a split off?".
It doesn't make a lot of sense.