LDS Mormons and the Bible

Rescued One

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Yes the Bible is clarified in the Book of Mormon and the D&C and those who are diligent in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness will understand them, but God in His wisdom did not specifically state what those plain and most precious things were...

So your former prophet was mislead or did he lie?

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)

1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

Or Joseph Fielding Smith was correct and you are mistaken --- which is it?

He has said:

(New Testament | James 1:3 - 7)

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

People need to be diligent in seeking wisdom from God.

Why quote that? Joseph Smith said he did that. Then he proceeded to write:

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
(1 Nephi 13)
 
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He is the way

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What does this have to do with anything I wrote?



Oh, well...he said it/wrote it, so I guess it must be true, huh? Is that the standard we're going with (by fiat, essentially)? Because in that case, not only is Joseph Smith a prophet, but so is Muhammad, so is Felix Manalo, so was Jeffrey Lundgren, so was David Koresh, etc. After all, he/they said so, and that's the standard you're going by by simply pasting this up here as though it speaks for itself/is its own argument. What a bunch of baloney.



Blahblahblah, more declarative statements that mean nothing to people outside of Mormonism. This really proves what I have been saying here (literally for years now) that the vast majority of Mormon apologists -- or at least the ones we meet here -- do not seem to understand the difference between making a statement and making an argument. They're not the same thing. Statements may be used to bolster arguments, and arguments are certainly composed of statements (in a way), but simply stating something and arguing why it should/shouldn't or is/isn't so are not the same thing.

Neither I nor any other Mormon gives two figs about these statements from your Mormon leaders. They don't prove anything at all, and come across as delusions of grandeur or worse. Either come up with an argument, or remain silent.



Well it's certainly nice for Brigham Young or whoever this was to tell us how Jesus was feeling, but again, I don't buy it for even one second.

Simply scattering this Mormon sub-apologetic buckshot across the thread would perhaps be acceptable if this were a Mormon website, but it isn't, so you actually have to try here. With respect, you don't seem as though you are trying. You are simply cutting and pasting large blocks of nonsense and then calling it a day, or doing a word search while making it clear that you aren't actually reading the results before you post them. Both are annoying in the extreme and should stop now.

Gosh, I miss Jane_Doe. She was often wrong, but at least sometimes she endeavored to have a back-and-forth based on the idea that her being Mormon in itself was not enough to defend her own points any more than my being Christian is in itself a defense of my points. Peter1000 was also better than you at this, though unfortunately he couldn't stop bringing up my particular Church when it had nothing to do with anything, which was pretty unhelpful and transparently desperate, too.

Still, at least they tried! Try! Be more like your fellow Mormon posters in this regard, please! Your faith deserves better than what you're giving it (and I write this even while I disagree with Mormonism on most things as a matter of theological and ecclesiological principle).
Many revelations given by God are dependent on other factors. Take for instance this revelation:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 38:1 - 5)

1 IN those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,
3 And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 ¶ Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

I know that Isaiah was not a false prophet. I also know that other factors do make a difference. Did God destroy the people of Nineveh?
 
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dzheremi

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Though I do think the idea of the Christians of Kerala somehow being able to determine and control information on a vast and global scale is pretty amusing.

Don't give them any ideas. I'll die before I let whoever's in charge of Malankara Orthodox liturgical music force their chintzy keyboards which ruin everything onto the Coptic Orthodox liturgies.

That's right...fight me, Achen!
 
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He is the way

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So your former prophet was mislead or did he lie?


There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)

1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

Or Joseph Fielding Smith was correct and you are mistaken --- which is it?






Why quote that? Joseph Smith said he did that. Then he proceeded to write:

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
(1 Nephi 13)
You either did not read my post or you did not understand what I said.
 
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Rescued One

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You either did not read my post or you did not understand what I said.
What a cop-out!

You said, "Yes the Bible is clarified in the Book of Mormon and the D&C and those who are diligent in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness will understand them, but God in His wisdom did not specifically state what those plain and most precious things were..."

It's obvious that your extra-biblical doctrine, required covenants, and multiple commandments and instruction from so-called prophets are considered those "plain and precious things." Pretending that they aren't doesn't help your case.
 
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He is the way

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What a cop-out!

You said, "Yes the Bible is clarified in the Book of Mormon and the D&C and those who are diligent in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness will understand them, but God in His wisdom did not specifically state what those plain and most precious things were..."

It's obvious that your extra-biblical doctrine, required covenants, and multiple commandments and instruction from so-called prophets are considered those "plain and precious things." Pretending that they aren't doesn't help your case.
There is more to it than just the required covenants and what you call multiple commandments. There are other precepts that can be discerned by those who diligently study the scriptures.
 
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Rescued One

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The world as a WHOLE (not individually) does lie in wickedness and that includes all who are of the church of the devil who are the tares mixed with the wheat. However there are still plenty of people who have not sinned unto death but have not received the necessary ordinances.

Those who don't follow Christ are the wicked.


Them that are dead refers to them that are physically dead:

No, we were all dead in trespasses and sins until God quickened us:

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ...

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:19 - 20)

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

They had their chance and chose their sin over God's warning. Christ made proclamation of His resurrection (victory).

Hebrew 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The wicked don't have their names written in the Book of Life.
 
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Rescued One

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There is more to it than just the required covenants and what you call multiple commandments. There are other precepts that can be discerned by those who diligently study the scriptures.

Look, I'm not going to list every durned detail! I've diligently studied those books you think are scriptures. So please get off your high horse.
 
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dzheremi

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There is also the unspoken (yet very loud and clear...) assumption in this kind of reasoning that if you haven't converted to Mormonism, then you haven't been diligent (or sincere, or prayerful, or whatever) enough. The diligent people get it, so if you don't...obviously the problem is with you, ya big dummy.

Hogwash! No one else here says to each other "If you knew were diligent enough, you'd join MY church!" (or if they do, I've never seen it, and I've been here for quite a while by this point), because most people recognize that the individual's spiritual walk is their own, and no one can live it for them. If you think it's a matter of reading the LDS literature enough until it 'clicks', I'd say that you should investigate whether or not that diligence is from the Holy Spirit or not. It's amazing what men can convince themselves of, particularly when spiritual matters are involved, since there's no real way to prove that anyone in particular is 'right' in any kind of exclusive sense until Christ returns to judge us all, and as we say in the reconciliation prayer of the Coptic Orthodox liturgy (emphasis added), "He rose from the dead on the third day; He ascended into the heavens and sat at Your right hand, O Father; He has appointed a day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness and give to each one according to his deeds." (To which the congregation responds appropriately: "According to Your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins.")

So we are to address first what we ourselves do, and "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12-13), not behave as though we can show up to judgment day with our Orthodox membership card, or Catholic membership card, or Protestant membership card, or whatever and say "See! Look how diligent I was! I joined the only right one!", because of course our judgment will be according to our deeds. Unlike the Mormon temples, we have no indication that you can get into heaven by having a 'recommend' from a bishop.

This is not to say that such divisions do not matter (there is a reason I'm not Roman Catholic anymore -- many, actually -- and why I am not Protestant or any of the other things I could be), only that we do not judge people by them. In my own Church we even had a metropolitan who shall remain nameless who has a bit of a known case of what you might call "Foot-in-Mouth Disease" who got in trouble before the synod after he unwisely declared that only Orthodox may be saved, not Catholics or Protestants. Since we don't teach that (again, judgment is God's, not ours), he was forced to retract that statement. It's a wrong statement. Yet it's the kind of statement that Mormonism is built on. It's a Goldilocks religion where only Mormonism is just right, and therefore blahblahblahblah. We're not 'diligent' enough, I guess. Why not just drop the pretense and call us stupid and stiff-necked or whatever? I know some of your earlier leaders were not so kind to the 'gentiles', as Christians were sometimes called by them.

The whole thing is just terribly arrogant, which itself smacks of false prophecy and spiritual delusion. Whatever Joseph Smith may or may not have met in the grove on that day (he told several different versions over his life), it surely was not God, and the message it delivered -- not the Creed of Christianity -- is truly abominable.
 
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He is the way

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What does this have to do with anything I wrote?



Oh, well...he said it/wrote it, so I guess it must be true, huh? Is that the standard we're going with (by fiat, essentially)? Because in that case, not only is Joseph Smith a prophet, but so is Muhammad, so is Felix Manalo, so was Jeffrey Lundgren, so was David Koresh, etc. After all, he/they said so, and that's the standard you're going by by simply pasting this up here as though it speaks for itself/is its own argument. What a bunch of baloney.



Blahblahblah, more declarative statements that mean nothing to people outside of Mormonism. This really proves what I have been saying here (literally for years now) that the vast majority of Mormon apologists -- or at least the ones we meet here -- do not seem to understand the difference between making a statement and making an argument. They're not the same thing. Statements may be used to bolster arguments, and arguments are certainly composed of statements (in a way), but simply stating something and arguing why it should/shouldn't or is/isn't so are not the same thing.

Neither I nor any other non-Mormon gives two figs about these statements from your Mormon leaders. They don't prove anything at all, and come across as delusions of grandeur or worse. Either come up with an argument, or remain silent.



Well it's certainly nice for Brigham Young or whoever this was to tell us how Jesus was feeling, but again, I don't buy it for even one second.

Simply scattering this Mormon sub-apologetic buckshot across the thread would perhaps be acceptable if this were a Mormon website, but it isn't, so you actually have to try here. With respect, you don't seem as though you are trying. You are simply cutting and pasting large blocks of nonsense and then calling it a day, or doing a word search while making it clear that you aren't actually reading the results before you post them. Both are annoying in the extreme and should stop now.

Gosh, I miss Jane_Doe. She was often wrong, but at least sometimes she endeavored to have a back-and-forth based on the idea that her being Mormon in itself was not enough to defend her own points any more than my being Christian is in itself a defense of my points. Peter1000 was also better than you at this, though unfortunately he couldn't stop bringing up my particular Church when it had nothing to do with anything, which was pretty unhelpful and transparently desperate, too.

Still, at least they tried! Try! Be more like your fellow Mormon posters in this regard, please! Your faith deserves better than what you're giving it (and I write this even while I disagree with Mormonism on most things as a matter of theological and ecclesiological principle).
You said: "What does this have to do with anything I wrote?" Polygamy became illegal in the United States making it against the articles of faith. I am surprised you did not see the correlation.

You said: "Oh, well...he said it/wrote it, so I guess it must be true, huh?"

Yes it is true.

You said: "You are simply cutting and pasting large blocks of nonsense and then calling it a day, or doing a word search while making it clear that you aren't actually reading the results before you post them. Both are annoying in the extreme and should stop now.

It seems to me it is much of the time you do not understand what I am posting or you just do not want to understand it.

You said: "Gosh, I miss Jane_Doe" I do too and I believe it was all of the contention that is here that drove her away. Too many people are not willing to come together but love to be the means of contention. Some people do not want to share the LOVE, perhaps they don't have it.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 11:29 - 38)

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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He is the way

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Look, I'm not going to list every durned detail! I've diligently studied those books you think are scriptures. So please get off your high horse.
Atheists also study the scriptures diligently but with a different perspective.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I do believe that there were many plain and precious things and covenants that are missing from the Bible. I also know that there are many copies of the manuscripts for the new testament although we do not have the original manuscript. Therefore I can only assume that these things were taken out before the copies of the manuscript were made. The other possibility is that some books were left out on purpose that should have been included.

Any such corruptions would have had to be made nearly immediately after the initial copies, like within the Apostolic era. I think this stands to reason from a few factors. The New Testament was spread out all throughout the Roman world by the second century. We have not only fragments from that time but also quotations by different authors completely separated from each other. Think of Ireneaus in Lyon, Tertullian in Carthage or Polycarp in Smyrna to Clement in Rome.

Since we know that the that texts were written in the first century and were spread out relatively early, with copies being made and distributed to various Churches, of which variations do not seem unreasonable, we would have to indict the Apostolic Church for allowing the New Testament to be corrupted in their life time.

This should be problematic for the Mormon since it would indict not only the Apostolic Church but your own Church. I don't think it could be reasonably argued that someone was able to gather every single manuscript of Romans or the Gospel of John in the early second century, edit them, remove references to Mormon practices (how convenient) and then put them into the Churches without anyone knowing.

Now while I don't find the idea of there being other Apostolic material that simply wasn't preserved being too out there, I do find it implausible that God would allow important material containing the essence of the Gospel (teaching us we can be gods, teaching us we need to be sealed in the temple, teaching us that we cannot drink alcohol or other practices) to not be there for his Church. If the New Testament does not contain the very essence of what it means to be saved, which I think it does in John 3:16, then I have to question God's purpose in the ministry of Christ to begin with.

It's the same basic problem I've had with all restorationist religions. God's actions, or inaction, result in the deliberate spread of a false religion that dominates the world for no apparent reason. What's the point of the New Testament if it's just a flawed and failed book which cannot help us? It was essentially useless till Joseph Smith came along and uncoded the mystery. Isn't it better to suppose that the truth has always accompanied the New Testament. That the faithful in a long line of communion have penetrated it's meaning and understood what it meant in terms of salvation?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Don't give them any ideas. I'll die before I let whoever's in charge of Malankara Orthodox liturgical music force their chintzy keyboards which ruin everything onto the Coptic Orthodox liturgies.

That's right...fight me, Achen!

I remember several years ago trying to find Malankara liturgical music (I was also trying to find Tawahedo music as well at the time without much success) without much luck. So I must confess my ignorance of the liturgical tradition of the Indian subcontinent.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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I remember several years ago trying to find Malankara liturgical music (I was also trying to find Tawahedo music as well at the time without much success) without much luck. So I must confess my ignorance of the liturgical tradition of the Indian subcontinent.

-CryptoLutheran

I can't pretend to know much, either, since I don't speak Malayalam so I can't find things as easily as others might. I just know there's stuff out there that I'd be completely comfortable with having in my own Church as a Coptic Orthodox Church, like this:


And then there's whatever this is:


If I had to guess, the melodies in the second one are probably traditional or based on something traditional, but having melody-producing instruments in church trips me up...I'm not offended by it so much as I don't see why it is necessary (the unaccompanied version is perfectly fine as it is), I find it distracting, and I don't think it's right that it's there. I wouldn't want it in my own Church, if such a thing were possible, which it basically isn't since we don't use the ochtoechos system (I have heard exactly one Coptic liturgy with organ, and everyone hated it and complained how it shouldn't be there; I'm assuming it was a fluke/experiment).

But then I remember that most of those same criticism have been applied by outsiders (and plenty of insiders) regarding the Coptic use of the cymbal and triangle, which are often played in a distracting way that is not in keeping with how they were historically taught to be played (as simple time-keeping devices, not a chance for some deacon to show off his skills). So...whatever.

Orthodox Tewahedo liturgical music can be hard to find if you're searching in English. Most of what you'll find are "mezmur", which is what they call their paraliturgical/popular songs with religious themes (not liturgical). If you want to find the liturgy itself you should try using the term kidase, k'idase, qidase, etc. (different transliterations of ቅዳሴ). Here's what that sounds like, if you're still looking (English translation begins on the slides at about 4:23 in; not sure why there isn't any English before that):


This is, as I understand it, based on the musical tradition invented by St. Yared, the father of Axumite liturgical music (5th century), making the Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo and the Copts the only people in the Christian world who don't use the standard 8 tone system common to the rest of historical/liturgical Christianity.
 
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Eternum

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To the LDS posting here: where were you guys during my threads? :expressionless: I got all kinds of encouragement and kindness from everyone but you. But here you guys are, just flexing scripture knowledge? Or something?

I don't even know what this mess is.

All I know is that @Phoebe Ann, I've been really curious about your story for awhile and I'm not able to privately message anyone here, so I apologize for busting up the relevance of this thread to finally ask: can you talk about your journey, or have you talked about your journey from being LDS to Protestant somewhere?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I can't pretend to know much, either, since I don't speak Malayalam so I can't find things as easily as others might. I just know there's stuff out there that I'd be completely comfortable with having in my own Church as a Coptic Orthodox Church, like this:


And then there's whatever this is:


If I had to guess, the melodies in the second one are probably traditional or based on something traditional, but having melody-producing instruments in church trips me up...I'm not offended by it so much as I don't see why it is necessary (the unaccompanied version is perfectly fine as it is), I find it distracting, and I don't think it's right that it's there. I wouldn't want it in my own Church, if such a thing were possible, which it basically isn't since we don't use the ochtoechos system (I have heard exactly one Coptic liturgy with organ, and everyone hated it and complained how it shouldn't be there; I'm assuming it was a fluke/experiment).

But then I remember that most of those same criticism have been applied by outsiders (and plenty of insiders) regarding the Coptic use of the cymbal and triangle, which are often played in a distracting way that is not in keeping with how they were historically taught to be played (as simple time-keeping devices, not a chance for some deacon to show off his skills). So...whatever.

Orthodox Tewahedo liturgical music can be hard to find if you're searching in English. Most of what you'll find are "mezmur", which is what they call their paraliturgical/popular songs with religious themes (not liturgical). If you want to find the liturgy itself you should try using the term kidase, k'idase, qidase, etc. (different transliterations of ቅዳሴ). Here's what that sounds like, if you're still looking (English translation begins on the slides at about 4:23 in; not sure why there isn't any English before that):


This is, as I understand it, based on the musical tradition invented by St. Yared, the father of Axumite liturgical music (5th century), making the Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo and the Copts the only people in the Christian world who don't use the standard 8 tone system common to the rest of historical/liturgical Christianity.

I remember when I came across Ethiopian mezmur the general impression I got was that it was somewhat analogous to modern "praise music". Thank you for the videos though, that's exactly the sort of thing I had been trying to find in the past. As a lover of the diversity of liturgical music traditions in Christianity, I've tried to exposing myself to that diversity. In looking those things up I've come to regar Coptic liturgical chant as among one of my favorites, whether in Coptic, Arabic, or in English (most of my exposure has been to Arabic and English). I am also likewise fond of Byzantine chant as well as Western plainsong, i.e. Gregorian chant..

I recently discovered that in some parts of the world there exists "Eastern Rite" Lutherans, who use a modified form of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I've yet to hear of any Lutherans using the Liturgy of St. James, though that is something I would be excited to find. My love of Eastern liturgics might be showing here. I would love to find a thoroughly "smells and bells" Eastern Rite Lutheran Mass.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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Do you happen to know whereabouts the "Eastern Lutherans" tend to be located? I searched "Eastern Lutherans" and "Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom Lutheran" in Russian, got nothing but a bunch of videos on the Volga Germans and their descendants who now speak Russian, but don't use anything like the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (or at least not that I could hear). Then I tried it in Arabic, since I know there are Lutherans in the Holy Land, but got "Western" Lutheran liturgy in Arabic from Beit Sahour (Palestine/Israel).

I'm down to Greek or Amharic, and then I'm out of languages I have installed on my computer! :p

I would think if you'd want to hear/see the liturgy of St. James performed by Protestants, you'd have to look up Mar Thoma churches, who are Anglicans in Syriac garb. So not quite what you're looking for, but closer than the two Orthodox churches would be, I guess. I'm not terribly impressed by what I've seen of them, but then why would I be.
 
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mmksparbud

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I remember several years ago trying to find Malankara liturgical music (I was also trying to find Tawahedo music as well at the time without much success) without much luck. So I must confess my ignorance of the liturgical tradition of the Indian subcontinent.

-CryptoLutheran

LOL! You think you're ignorant?---I haven't a clue what you are all talking about!!!
 
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