LDS Mormons and the Bible

[ViaCrucis]

Do you happen to know whereabouts the "Eastern Lutherans" tend to be located? I searched "Eastern Lutherans" and "Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom Lutheran" in Russian, got nothing but a bunch of videos on the Volga Germans and their descendants who now speak Russian, but don't use anything like the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (or at least not that I could hear). Then I tried it in Arabic, since I know there are Lutherans in the Holy Land, but got "Western" Lutheran liturgy in Arabic from Beit Sahour (Palestine/Israel).

I'm down to Greek or Amharic, and then I'm out of languages I have installed on my computer!

I would think if you'd want to hear/see the liturgy of St. James performed by Protestants, you'd have to look up Mar Thoma churches, who are Anglicans in Syriac garb. So not quite what you're looking for, but closer than the two Orthodox churches would be, I guess. I'm not terribly impressed by what I've seen of them, but then why would I be.

Can't say I have too much information off the top of my head, this is about all I'm aware of. I could of swore I remember mention of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but I may be completely mistaken on that. As far as the Liturgy of St. James, I wouldn't expect much if anything to be found in a Lutheran context. And even if something like that did exist, the fear is that it would be treated more as a novelty, than as organic.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rescued One]

To the LDS posting here: where were you guys during my threads? I got all kinds of encouragement and kindness from everyone but you. But here you guys are, just flexing scripture knowledge? Or something?

I don't even know what this mess is.

All I know is that @Phoebe Ann, I've been really curious about your story for awhile and I'm not able to privately message anyone here, so I apologize for busting up the relevance of this thread to finally ask: can you talk about your journey, or have you talked about your journey from being LDS to Protestant somewhere?

I'll try to post my story this weekend if I remember. Okay?

I'm not flexing scripture knowledge. I'm sharing information about Mormonism and often contrasting that with the Bible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

LOL! You think you're ignorant?---I haven't a clue what you are all talking about!!!

Malankara refers to the region of India that is now primarily the Indian state of Kerala, also known as the Malabar Coast. The indigenous Christians of India are known as Malankara or Mar Thoma Christians, Mar Thoma being the Syriac term for "St. Thomas", based on the very ancient tradition that St. Thomas the Apostle was the first to preach the Gospel in India. The Indian or Malankara Church has a long and complicated history, having generally been in, at least a loose, communion with the various Syriac Churches (both "Nestorian" and Oriental Orthodox), and at times being completely isolated from the rest of the Christian world. The Mar Thoma Christian community has undergone a large number of schisms since the arrival of the Portuguese in the 16th century when the Portuguese tried to force the Mar Thoma Christians to become Roman Catholic. Today there are at least a dozen or more Mar Thoma churches which all claim descent from the ancient Mar Thoma Church.

Tawahedo is the ancient Ge'ez (the ancient Semitic language of Ethiopia) word which is roughly the translation of "orthodox". The Ethiopian Orthodox Tawahedo Church is the historic and indigenous Christian Church in Ethiopia, since the preaching and ministry of St. Frumentius which resulted in the conversion of the Axumite king Ezana to Christianity in the 4th century. More recently the Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo Church gained autonomy as the Church of the Eritreans. The Ethiopian Church, historically, has been tied very closely to the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt, being dependent upon the Patriarch of Alexandria for their bishops (they have in modern times become independent of the Egyptian Church and can call their own bishops). But apart from their historic ties to the See of Alexandria and the Egyptian Church, the Ethiopian Church has frequently been rather isolated from the rest of the Christian world. This has also resulted in the Ethiopian Church having some rather peculiar aspects about it, for example the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo Churches have the largest Biblical Canon in Christianity, some of their practices reflect their distinctly Jewish background, for example every Ethipian church has an Ark (a replica of the Ark of the Covenant), and they also engage in ritual sacrifice of lambs. Ethiopian religious and cultural identity is tightly connected to their traditions that they say go back to the time of King Solomon. The last emperor of Ethiopia, Emperor Haile Selassie, claimed direct descent to King Solomon.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm...still nothing for Lutherans in Ukraine (well, they're there, but nothing of their liturgy being that of St. John Chrysostom...granted, I am typing in Russian, not Ukrainian), or Slovenia or the like. Everything there seems Western. Lutherans are, naturally, strongly identified with the Germans and Scandinavians, so maybe there's a bit of a cultural barrier there (several of the videos I found in Russian still identified it as the "German Evangelical Lutheran Church", even though all the interviews with the people in the video were conducted in fluent Russian). I dunno.

Turns out there are apparently a small number of Lutherans in India!

Who knew? But what they're worshiping according to, I couldn't tell you. Doesn't seem to be related to the Indian Orthodox liturgies, but then that's part of the problem with putting keyboards and such all over...not to harp on it, but how's the outsider supposed to know any better? Especially since the Mar Thomites (and Malankara Catholics) can seem fairly convincing, up to a point:

Mar Thoma (Protestant)

Syro-Malankara (Catholic)

Syriac Orthodox ('Jacobite', i.e., not autocephalous/not Malankara Orthodox)

I dunno...India's a confusing mess.

 

[dzheremi]

Tawahedo is the ancient Ge'ez (the ancient Semitic language of Ethiopia) word which is roughly the translation of "orthodox".

Just a small correction, my friend (not to embarrass or show off, but just so that it's out there): "tewahedo" is not a translation of "Orthodox" except insofar as we obviously believe our Christology to be Orthodox. It is most often translated in English as "being made one" (the most precise, theologically-speaking), "united", "unified" or the like, in reference to the one united nature of Christ -- divine and human -- professed by the Church. It is a cognate with the Arabic tawhid, meaning "monotheism". (This has, quite funnily, in the past led me to explain to Muslims who were telling people online that "the original Christians like the Copts agree with Islam, not with the Trinity doctrine" that, no, that is not the case...just because tewahedo and tawhid share the same Semitic root doesn't mean that we don't believe in the Trinity; in fact, after the Arab-Muslims came, we did nothing but strengthen our belief in it, in terms of our public profession, which is why we have since those times added onouti enoout/el ilahu el wahid/ahadu amlak "the ONE God" to our profession of the Trinitarian formula; I don't think you find that outside of the OO churches, but I'm not sure.)

 

[mmksparbud]

Malankara refers to the region of India that is now primarily the Indian state of Kerala, also known as the Malabar Coast. The indigenous Christians of India are known as Malankara or Mar Thoma Christians, Mar Thoma being the Syriac term for "St. Thomas", based on the very ancient tradition that St. Thomas the Apostle was the first to preach the Gospel in India. The Indian or Malankara Church has a long and complicated history, having generally been in, at least a loose, communion with the various Syriac Churches (both "Nestorian" and Oriental Orthodox), and at times being completely isolated from the rest of the Christian world. The Mar Thoma Christian community has undergone a large number of schisms since the arrival of the Portuguese in the 16th century when the Portuguese tried to force the Mar Thoma Christians to become Roman Catholic. Today there are at least a dozen or more Mar Thoma churches which all claim descent from the ancient Mar Thoma Church.

Tawahedo is the ancient Ge'ez (the ancient Semitic language of Ethiopia) word which is roughly the translation of "orthodox". The Ethiopian Orthodox Tawahedo Church is the historic and indigenous Christian Church in Ethiopia, since the preaching and ministry of St. Frumentius which resulted in the conversion of the Axumite king Ezana to Christianity in the 4th century. More recently the Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo Church gained autonomy as the Church of the Eritreans. The Ethiopian Church, historically, has been tied very closely to the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt, being dependent upon the Patriarch of Alexandria for their bishops (they have in modern times become independent of the Egyptian Church and can call their own bishops). But apart from their historic ties to the See of Alexandria and the Egyptian Church, the Ethiopian Church has frequently been rather isolated from the rest of the Christian world. This has also resulted in the Ethiopian Church having some rather peculiar aspects about it, for example the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo Churches have the largest Biblical Canon in Christianity, some of their practices reflect their distinctly Jewish background, for example every Ethipian church has an Ark (a replica of the Ark of the Covenant), and they also engage in ritual sacrifice of lambs. Ethiopian religious and cultural identity is tightly connected to their traditions that they say go back to the time of King Solomon. The last emperor of Ethiopia, Emperor Haile Selassie, claimed direct descent to King Solomon.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you!

 

[Eternum]

I'll try to post my story this weekend if I remember. Okay?

I'm not flexing scripture knowledge. I'm sharing information about Mormonism and often contrasting that with the Bible.

Sure thing.

Oh, that wasn't directed at you. Whatever thread anyone creates is their business and it's clear that you are trying to sort things out. Just as I was reading where this thread went, ever curious about your story, I watched it go more and more sideways on tangents and split hairs. At least that's how it looked to me, and it's just an opinion and I get that it is.

My stance is that God, knowing the end from the beginning, planned accordingly. I do still have LDS beliefs about the plan of happiness, however I feel it extends through time and covers more than we mere humans can know. The Bible has been very seriously put together and gone over from generations of religious leaders, pouring over what is canon and what is not, compiling and agreeing on a creed (or several?), and so forth. it's essential. Christ's ministry is essential.

Thing is, and what's cool to me about the LDS religion, is, "What if God had more?"

I can see how that question can be disruptive. Why would He? He's perfect. He could compile all the knowledge in one book too, right?

This is where one's religious beliefs are a very personal journey and that I don't believe in pushing anything on people.

I'm a naturally curious person. I feel like as we've gone forward as a race learning ever more about science and the rules of the universe God has built, so too can the spiritual knowledge continue outward as we continue ever forward in improving ourselves in faith and understanding Christ. I love the idea that God encourages us to be curious about His creations, to continue learning at His feet, and to learn all about Him.

To me, it doesn't seem outside of His character to continue to provide us with more textbooks to study from. You don't go to a classroom of first graders and say, "Let's learn quantum physics today. "

You start with addition and subtraction. (This is a very loose temporal analogy, so please take it with a grain of salt.) And God shows in the Bible His same orderly, structured approach. Have people messed with it? Sure. (I mean, nobody is going out there like "We should stone the adulterers! RAWR") Does that mean the core and vital knowledge--that all things lead back to and through Christ--is lost? Definitely and thankfully not! Does that mean other people are wrong for leaning on the Bible? Absolutely not!

God took all things into account.

That's what it's about: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. The divine paradox is as our knowledge as a race expands, and as our faith deepens and expands, it also continues to remain simple at the core.

 

[Rescued One]

Sure thing.

Oh, that wasn't directed at you. Whatever thread anyone creates is their business and it's clear that you are trying to sort things out. Just as I was reading where this thread went, ever curious about your story, I watched it go more and more sideways on tangents and split hairs. At least that's how it looked to me, and it's just an opinion and I get that it is.

My stance is that God, knowing the end from the beginning, planned accordingly. I do still have LDS beliefs about the plan of happiness, however I feel it extends through time and covers more than we mere humans can know. The Bible has been very seriously put together and gone over from generations of religious leaders, pouring over what is canon and what is not, compiling and agreeing on a creed (or several?), and so forth. it's essential. Christ's ministry is essential.

Thing is, and what's cool to me about the LDS religion, is, "What if God had more?"

I can see how that question can be disruptive. Why would He? He's perfect. He could compile all the knowledge in one book too, right?

This is where one's religious beliefs are a very personal journey and that I don't believe in pushing anything on people.

I'm a naturally curious person. I feel like as we've gone forward as a race learning ever more about science and the rules of the universe God has built, so too can the spiritual knowledge continue outward as we continue ever forward in improving ourselves in faith and understanding Christ. I love the idea that God encourages us to be curious about His creations, to continue learning at His feet, and to learn all about Him.

To me, it doesn't seem outside of His character to continue to provide us with more textbooks to study from. You don't go to a classroom of first graders and say, "Let's learn quantum physics today. "

You start with addition and subtraction. (This is a very loose temporal analogy, so please take it with a grain of salt.) And God shows in the Bible His same orderly, structured approach. Have people messed with it? Sure. (I mean, nobody is going out there like "We should stone the adulterers! RAWR") Does that mean the core and vital knowledge--that all things lead back to and through Christ--is lost? Definitely and thankfully not! Does that mean other people are wrong for leaning on the Bible? Absolutely not!

God took all things into account.

That's what it's about: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. The divine paradox is as our knowledge as a race expands, and as our faith deepens and expands, it also continues to remain simple at the core.

Most threads that people start go off on tangents. I've been known to tell people to read the OP. They could agree to start new threads if they aren't Mormons or JWs or so on. However...

 

[mmksparbud]

Sure thing.

Oh, that wasn't directed at you. Whatever thread anyone creates is their business and it's clear that you are trying to sort things out. Just as I was reading where this thread went, ever curious about your story, I watched it go more and more sideways on tangents and split hairs. At least that's how it looked to me, and it's just an opinion and I get that it is.

My stance is that God, knowing the end from the beginning, planned accordingly. I do still have LDS beliefs about the plan of happiness, however I feel it extends through time and covers more than we mere humans can know. The Bible has been very seriously put together and gone over from generations of religious leaders, pouring over what is canon and what is not, compiling and agreeing on a creed (or several?), and so forth. it's essential. Christ's ministry is essential.

Thing is, and what's cool to me about the LDS religion, is, "What if God had more?"

I can see how that question can be disruptive. Why would He? He's perfect. He could compile all the knowledge in one book too, right?

This is where one's religious beliefs are a very personal journey and that I don't believe in pushing anything on people.

I'm a naturally curious person. I feel like as we've gone forward as a race learning ever more about science and the rules of the universe God has built, so too can the spiritual knowledge continue outward as we continue ever forward in improving ourselves in faith and understanding Christ. I love the idea that God encourages us to be curious about His creations, to continue learning at His feet, and to learn all about Him.

To me, it doesn't seem outside of His character to continue to provide us with more textbooks to study from. You don't go to a classroom of first graders and say, "Let's learn quantum physics today. "

You start with addition and subtraction. (This is a very loose temporal analogy, so please take it with a grain of salt.) And God shows in the Bible His same orderly, structured approach. Have people messed with it? Sure. (I mean, nobody is going out there like "We should stone the adulterers! RAWR") Does that mean the core and vital knowledge--that all things lead back to and through Christ--is lost? Definitely and thankfully not! Does that mean other people are wrong for leaning on the Bible? Absolutely not!

God took all things into account.

That's what it's about: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. The divine paradox is as our knowledge as a race expands, and as our faith deepens and expands, it also continues to remain simple at the core.

Yes--God took everything into account. Your question---what if theirs's more? What if there is? Next question is---would God intentionally have left out anything that was necessary to our salvation?? You then would have to question why? How could a loving God, who wants us to be saved, intentionally leave out anything that was necessary? Next question would be---for how long was it missing? If it's for 1000's of years---why that long? Then you would have to question if He wasn't able to keep His word from getting trashed? If He isn't capable of keeping His word together, you would have to wonder just how much power this God has--or hasn't got. On the other hand---if, as His word says---

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Then there can not be anything, that is necessary to our salvation, that could possibly be missing from His word. It boils down to whether you are going to believe in what His word says, or not. If not, then you can not be sure of anything it says and will end up believing in whatever sounds the best to you or in nothing at all.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

You either believe in what His word says---or in what anybody that says "God told me...." That is why God said:
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hmm...still nothing for Lutherans in Ukraine (well, they're there, but nothing of their liturgy being that of St. John Chrysostom...granted, I am typing in Russian, not Ukrainian), or Slovenia or the like. Everything there seems Western. Lutherans are, naturally, strongly identified with the Germans and Scandinavians, so maybe there's a bit of a cultural barrier there (several of the videos I found in Russian still identified it as the "German Evangelical Lutheran Church", even though all the interviews with the people in the video were conducted in fluent Russian). I dunno.

There used to be a poster on CF who was from the Ukrainian Lutheran Church, i.e. Byzantine Rite Lutheran. But no I haven't been able to find too much when searching Youtube and the like.

Turns out there are apparently a small number of Lutherans in India!

Who knew? But what they're worshiping according to, I couldn't tell you.

If I had to hazard a guess it's probably an adaption of the basic Lutheran Divine Service, i.e. the Formula Missae or Deutsche Messe; Luther's reforms of the Pre-Tridentine Mass which forms the basis for most Lutherans still. In this case this is the IELC, it's a missionary church and so wouldn't have any connection to the Mar Thoma tradition.

I dunno...India's a confusing mess.

I only recently bothered to sit down and read through some of the really complicated history of Christianity in India. That was almost a headache trying to keep track of things. Seems like just about everyone wanted to be the Mar Thoma Church, and so nearly everyone got a piece--everyone except the Indian Church itself it seems like.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Eternum]

Yes--God took everything into account. Your question---what if theirs's more? What if there is? Next question is---would God intentionally have left out anything that was necessary to our salvation?? You then would have to question why?

Whoa, whoa. Let me clarify here. I do not think anything at all was left out about our salvation. As I said, everything leads back to and through Christ. That said, your post is still a very productive following of questions and thought process.

To clarify, I have to ask you, if you had a chance to sit in the same room and talk with Jesus, would you not jump at the chance to hear more of His teachings? Would you not be curious if He had anymore parables to share?

I do think it's wise to be cautious, and to follow closely the Lord's counsel as best you can. You're right that there's a lot of fake out there. That's why you gotta do what's right for you and keep learning at God's feet.

I will finish by quoting the rest of what you wrote since I think it's very important and I love the scriptures you referenced.

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Then there can not be anything, that is necessary to our salvation, that could possibly be missing from His word. It boils down to whether you are going to believe in what His word says, or not. If not, then you can not be sure of anything it says and will end up believing in whatever sounds the best to you or in nothing at all.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

You either believe in what His word says---or in what anybody that says "God told me...." That is why God said:
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Ironhold]

To the LDS posting here: where were you guys during my threads? I got all kinds of encouragement and kindness from everyone but you. But here you guys are, just flexing scripture knowledge? Or something?

Where are your threads even at?

 

[Ironhold]

I remember several years ago trying to find Malankara liturgical music (I was also trying to find Tawahedo music as well at the time without much success) without much luck. So I must confess my ignorance of the liturgical tradition of the Indian subcontinent.

-CryptoLutheran

Did you check iTunes?

I got a single hit for "Malankara" when I checked their store, so you might want to check what that is.

Bear in mind that iTunes charges all applicable local sales taxes, so you'll have to add that in to the price listed for everything.

edit - You'd be surprised what's on iTunes these days, even if Apple is trying to replace it with another marketplace.

edit edit - If you don't have an iTunes account, you'll have to register to purchase the song if that's what you're after. When you go to register, it'll ask you to either provide your credit card number or provide the code off of an iTunes card (there's usually a large rack of gift cards in the average big-box pharmacy or grocery store). This is simply to provide proof that you can pay for your purchase.

Whatever you provide, it'll be added to your account. If you only list the number off of an iTunes card, it'll hold the value of the card in a digital wallet and withdraw from that until there's not enough to make more purchases; at that point, you just find the "redeem" button under your account tab and punch in the code off of another iTunes card.

You can get them at retail in denominations of $15, $25, $30, $50, and "add your own value here", or some paid survey groups (PM me if you want recommendations) will offer them as rewards you can redeem earned points for.

 

[mmksparbud]

Whoa, whoa. Let me clarify here. I do not think anything at all was left out about our salvation. As I said, everything leads back to and through Christ. That said, your post is still a very productive following of questions and thought process.

To clarify, I have to ask you, if you had a chance to sit in the same room and talk with Jesus, would you not jump at the chance to hear more of His teachings? Would you not be curious if He had anymore parables to share?

I do think it's wise to be cautious, and to follow closely the Lord's counsel as best you can. You're right that there's a lot of fake out there. That's why you gotta do what's right for you and keep learning at God's feet.

I will finish by quoting the rest of what you wrote since I think it's very important and I love the scriptures you referenced.

Our salvation is what Jesus died for. There's no way He left anything out. To sit at the feet of Jesus will be the desire of all of us. We will be learning throughout eternity. The thing is---anything that comes up has to flow with what is already there. If something contradicts what other of God's prophets have said, than it is not of God. In the new earth we will not have to worry about false doctrines, here and now we do. The aim of Satan is to detract from our focus on Jesus. To portray the Almighty God as something less than He actually is and magnify the created instead of the Creator.

 

[He is the way]

Yes--God took everything into account. Your question---what if theirs's more? What if there is? Next question is---would God intentionally have left out anything that was necessary to our salvation?? You then would have to question why? How could a loving God, who wants us to be saved, intentionally leave out anything that was necessary? Next question would be---for how long was it missing? If it's for 1000's of years---why that long? Then you would have to question if He wasn't able to keep His word from getting trashed? If He isn't capable of keeping His word together, you would have to wonder just how much power this God has--or hasn't got. On the other hand---if, as His word says---

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Then there can not be anything, that is necessary to our salvation, that could possibly be missing from His word. It boils down to whether you are going to believe in what His word says, or not. If not, then you can not be sure of anything it says and will end up believing in whatever sounds the best to you or in nothing at all.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

You either believe in what His word says---or in what anybody that says "God told me...." That is why God said:
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You know what, I am glad you mentioned that. Now wasn't baptism necessary to our salvation? This is what we read in the New Testament:

(New Testament | John 3:5)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:21)

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Thus we see that God did not give everyone who ever lived the opportunity to return to Him while they were still alive. That being said He did make it possible for our ancestors to have that saving ordinance performed for them:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

God is just and fair, that is why gives everyone the opportunity to return to Him. And so as you quoted:

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So yes He is willing and able to make salvation possible for everyone!!!!!

 

[He is the way]

Our salvation is what Jesus died for. There's no way He left anything out. To sit at the feet of Jesus will be the desire of all of us. We will be learning throughout eternity. The thing is---anything that comes up has to flow with what is already there. If something contradicts what other of God's prophets have said, than it is not of God. In the new earth we will not have to worry about false doctrines, here and now we do. The aim of Satan is to detract from our focus on Jesus. To portray the Almighty God as something less than He actually is and magnify the created instead of the Creator.

Yes let us glorify God who made it possible for everyone that the Father gave to Christ be saved except the son of perdition through the atonement of His Son Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:12)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe that those that were given to Christ are the ones who LOVE Him:

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 24)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[dzheremi]

I only recently bothered to sit down and read through some of the really complicated history of Christianity in India. That was almost a headache trying to keep track of things. Seems like just about everyone wanted to be the Mar Thoma Church, and so nearly everyone got a piece--everyone except the Indian Church itself it seems like.

What would you recommend in this area? I have a few books, but of course they are all from the OO viewpoint, and nothing that goes into the overall history well beyond those events by which the (re-)union was definitively established, e.g., HH Moran Mor Ignatius Aphram Barsoum's History of the Syriac Dioceses covers several of the metropolitans of Malabar, as I guess they were known at the time, in the period covered by the book overall, 1687-1774, but is not about India in particular). The internal schism between the OO Indians doesn't help keep things clear, either, though thankfully it also doesn't reach outside of India proper, from what I understand (i.e., in the Coptic Orthodox Church, we recognize both patriarchs).

 

[mmksparbud]

You know what, I am glad you mentioned that. Now wasn't baptism necessary to our salvation? This is what we read in the New Testament:

(New Testament | John 3:5)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:21)

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Thus we see that God did not give everyone who ever lived the opportunity to return to Him while they were still alive. That being said He did make it possible for our ancestors to have that saving ordinance performed for them:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

God is just and fair, that is why gives everyone the opportunity to return to Him. And so as you quoted:

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So yes He is willing and able to make salvation possible for everyone!!!!!

You obviously do not understand baptism. It was not a necessary ritual in the OT. It is an example of dying to the old self, dying with Jesus and resurrected unto life with Him. It is a public expression of taking Jesus into our life. The Jews had mikvas---which was ritual cleansing before entering into the temple, and before marriage and at other times--it held a different meaning to the Jew. We are baptized once and cleansed by Jesus---the Jews had to have mikvas weekly, monthly (post menstruation) sometimes more often. The waters had to be of a certain kind---no stagnant water such as in a bathtub. They were often connected (2-3) by a hole to accommodate the concept of "flowing water"---sometimes they even used them to purify other things, like even cooking utensils.


The baptism of the dead was a type of mikva--:"The mikvah concept is also the focal point of the taharah, the purification rite of a Jew before the person is laid to rest and the soul ascends on high. The manual pouring of water in a highly specific manner over the entire body of the deceased serves this purpose."

It is not---in any way shape or form--- what JS and your prophets make it into. They had no clue what this passage actually was about. A true prophet would have known.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes let us glorify God who made it possible for everyone that the Father gave to Christ be saved except the son of perdition through the atonement of His Son Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:12)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe that those that were given to Christ are the ones who LOVE Him:

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 24)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Reply has nothing to do with what was said.

 

[He is the way]

You obviously do not understand baptism. It was not a necessary ritual in the OT. It is an example of dying to the old self, dying with Jesus and resurrected unto life with Him. It is a public expression of taking Jesus into our life. The Jews had mikvas---which was ritual cleansing before entering into the temple, and before marriage and at other times--it held a different meaning to the Jew. We are baptized once and cleansed by Jesus---the Jews had to have mikvas weekly, monthly (post menstruation) sometimes more often. The waters had to be of a certain kind---no stagnant water such as in a bathtub. They were often connected (2-3) by a hole to accommodate the concept of "flowing water"---sometimes they even used them to purify other things, like even cooking utensils.


The baptism of the dead was a type of mikva--:"The mikvah concept is also the focal point of the taharah, the purification rite of a Jew before the person is laid to rest and the soul ascends on high. The manual pouring of water in a highly specific manner over the entire body of the deceased serves this purpose."

It is not---in any way shape or form--- what JS and your prophets make it into. They had no clue what this passage actually was about. A true prophet would have known.

I do understand baptism, and it is not the way you understand it. Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If He being sinless was baptized, how much more does everyone else need it?